International Trade Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Derek, you spoke about the investments that businesses will have to make, but it is difficult for them to invest when there's uncertainty in the market.

[Derek Nighbor]

I agree. I also see measures like the one in your community around caribou recovery. It is a plan that could put thousands of people out of work. It is destabilizing investment in Quebec, and it is not helping. We need predictable access to the land base, and that's another business concern on top of all of this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Next, we have Mr. Sidhu.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for joining us today on this very important study.

As you are aware, our government has a very ambitious plan to build close to four million homes, working with provincial and municipal partners.

Mr. Lee, you mentioned the need to loosen red tape in getting more homes built. You mentioned the housing accelerator fund, which is doing just that. It's streamlining permitting and helping municipalities build more infrastructure and get more sewer and water lines into the ground so that more houses can be built.

Brampton MPs worked together to secure roughly $114 million for the City of Brampton to build over 20,000 homes. This funding is given out in sections, so 25% of that has been allocated, and $85 million is now on the table and is at stake here.

Mr. Poilievre has mentioned that he's going to cancel the housing accelerator fund, which has made mayors across Ontario really angry, because this funding has been allocated. Some of the mayors have come back and said that this could lead to an increase in property taxes. This could lead to projects being cancelled and many thousands of homes not being built.

I was just talking to my colleague here, Mr. Miao. He's an MP from Richmond, B.C. He was talking about how the housing accelerator fund has enabled his city streamline the construction of many homes.

You mentioned that different partners have a role to play. We repeatedly hear the Leader of the Opposition, Mr. Poilievre, attack municipalities. Just this past weekend, he said, “Trudeau will give more and more to incompetent, greedy, money-hungry municipal politicians.” On this side of the table, we know we need to work with the provinces and municipalities to enable more home construction.

What would you have to say? What role would the municipalities have to play in helping to enable more work for your members and get homes built?

[Kevin Lee]

There's no question that we need continued change at the municipal level in terms of policies, programs and the way things are done. We're starting to see that change in some places, but not all places. The attention that's been put on this issue by the federal and provincial governments has been critical to making that happen. In order to keep moving in that direction, we're going to need policies of that nature moving forward. In the best scenario, the municipalities, the industries and all three levels of government are working together to drive more supply. In reality, sometimes that takes some twisting.

In fact, in some ways, when you look at the opportunities for the federal government, the federal government is in a great place to fight Nimbyism, actually. The people who have the hardest time fighting Nimbyism are municipal councillors and mayors. Why? It's because when they put these things in place and they have their own constituents voting for them, it's very hard for a municipal councillor to say, “I'm in big favour of this taller building here”, even though we all know we need it, because the local constituents don't want it.

It's really critical for the federal and provincial governments to continue to play an important role and use the levers at their disposal to, in some ways, help municipalities help themselves, because it can be very difficult in those instances. There are a variety of ways to do that, but we need to keep focused on making that happen.

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

Yes, you're right. The housing accelerator funds get released to municipalities as they hit certain targets. Therefore, we want to continue to enable municipalities with the construction of more homes. That is very important to many of my constituents.

Mr. Nighbor, you mentioned maybe diversifying into other markets. How is that working out for you right now? Have you looked at using CETA or using the CPTPP to access markets in that region of the world? It's one of the fastest-growing regions in the world. How is that turning out for you right now, and where do you think the government can assist you further?

[Derek Nighbor]

The biggest opportunity for us is Asia, for sure. There is still a lot of activity and opportunity in China through its building codes moving to a more “build with wood” kind of culture, and we can show them how to get there. There is Japan on a higher value. Japanese customers are going to pay good money for good wood. That's very clear. There is Korea. There's a strong furniture industry in Vietnam, as well. There's more promise for us in the Asia-Pacific, for sure. Lana talked a bit about Europe and some of the EU regulations. We're in the single digits in terms of what we're selling to the EU. Any diversification piece should be focused on Asia, where the big opportunity is.

I was just looking at some of the stateside numbers. In the state of California—these are 2020 numbers—27% of its wood came from China, and 24% from Canada. If you look at the state of New York, almost half comes from Canada, but right after Canada are Brazil, Chile, China and Russia. I do think that, through diplomacy with our American counterparts at the state level and through that team Canada kind of charm offensive, we have an opportunity to remind our American neighbours about the benefits of buying from Canada, instead of Brazil or China.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Next is Mr. Savard-Tremblay for two and a half minutes, please.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Ms. Payne, as we know and as you clearly explained, the impact is quite significant for workers and for communities with layoffs and business closures. In addition to the concrete impact they have in the immediate term, there seems to be some uncertainty related to the recent lack of an agreement. The absence of an agreement certainly has the effect of significantly limiting any new investment for certain products, which could otherwise represent good business opportunities.

In your opinion, to what extent does uncertainty have an impact on workers and layoffs?

[Lana Payne]

Absolutely, there's no doubt in my mind that the tariffs have potentially limited the kind of investment that we should have been seeing in the industry. Also, the threat of these new tariffs, 25% across the board, just creates chaos. It creates instability. It can, and I believe it will, result in diverting investment away from Canada and into the United States, not just in the forest sector but across all sectors in Canada.

This is what we're facing, and it's why it's really, really important. Derek talked about the team Canada approach. I believe that. I think we have to have a unified front in Canada on all of these things, on softwood lumber and U.S. trade generally. We need to make sure that we're protecting Canadian jobs and Canadian workers through this entire process.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Very well.

I have only 40 seconds left, which doesn't allow me to get into much detail. In closing, I'd like to ask if you can confirm—despite what the Americans are saying and assuming—that “public forest” is not synonymous with “subsidized industry”.

[Lana Payne]

Yes, this is a very long quest, and we've been arguing this point for 40 years with the United States. I do believe that we have a lot of work ahead of us, but I also know what's possible when Canada comes together to do what's in the best interest of Canadians. What I'm saying is, let's just get on with it and get it done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Next is Mr. Desjarlais for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Lana, I really appreciate that: Let's just get it done. That's the approach we took after World War II with many of our industries. We created hundreds of corporations here in Canada to make certain that our soldiers across the ocean had what they needed. Whether it was lumber, steel or iron, we were able to produce that. Canada, little tiny Canada with barely 30 million people, was able to produce the largest merchant navy in the world while also supplying our men and women overseas with every bit of raw material they needed, including material that was produced right here.

That is a far cry from where we are today with softwood lumber, but I don't think it's something that's beyond our reach. I think that Mr. Lee can have his products for his construction at the cheapest price possible, because we've supported groups like Mr. Nighbor's and his industry in producing value-added products. Hopefully we've done a good enough job as a country to ensure that we've created a foundation for forestry and softwood lumber where they can actually be seen as a competitive force not just domestically but internationally.

My colleague from the Bloc Québécois mentioned that one of the root causes of this trade dispute is related to this idea of a subsidy, that all of our Crown forests are this great big subsidy that has to be protected from American softwood lumber industries or their big lobby. Of course, I disagree with that. I do think that Americans need our lumber tremendously.

I think that in many ways this is Trump's way of trying to create a positive surplus for himself. It has nothing to do with the fact that he's failed to secure America at the borders. That's not our problem. It's his job to secure the American borders. What he wants to see is his industries benefit through the trade imbalance that currently exists. Canada has a surplus partly because of our great industries and how competitive we are, and we're being punished for that. That's inappropriate. That's not an okay thing to do. That's not what friends do to other friends.

This is why I agree with the team Canada approach. We do need to see that. It needs to put front and centre what is valuable for Canadians, which is our jobs, the union jobs that are there. That is the most valuable and important piece to this puzzle for me.

Ms. Payne, in terms of a team Canada approach, you just witnessed Justin Trudeau, our Prime Minister, head to the United States. He came back without the answers that we were hoping for, unfortunately. What do you think needs to be the question we pose to our Prime Minister at this point?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Make a very brief comment, please. There are 16 seconds remaining.

[Lana Payne]

I don't think any of us had any expectation that the Prime Minister would be able to get a deal with the president-elect in one dinner meeting.

However, I do expect—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

We were hoping to get some answers. That was the word I used.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much. I'm trying to complete this round.

Mr. Jeneroux, go ahead for two minutes. Then it's Mr. Arya for two minutes.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Derek, Kevin and Lana, for being with us here today. It sure is great to hear from all of you.

I'm hoping to get two quick questions in.

Ms. Payne, we heard testimony last week that 90,000 jobs have been lost in the sector. You mentioned the significant impact this has had on your organization. Do you know how many of those 90,000 jobs were Unifor jobs?

[Lana Payne]

We have been losing forestry jobs for decades now. This is why we have been talking about the need for a proper industrial strategy, in order to build and protect the jobs we have today and to create new jobs.

Tens of thousands—

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

I don't want to cut you off. I know we're at the very end, but I'm hoping that, if there's a number, we can get it, if you don't have it today.

If you could send it to the committee, that would be great.

[Lana Payne]

I sure can.

There are tens of thousands of jobs that have been lost in the forestry sector over the last number of decades.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Were these Unifor jobs?

[Lana Payne]

Yes.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Okay.

Quickly, this is probably for both of you, Derek and Kevin.

Kevin mentioned during his opening testimony that the cost of lumber is now $26,000 more than it was prepandemic. Do you know, or have you done any analysis on, how many fewer homes...? What was the impact of that?