International Trade Committee on May 2nd, 2022

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

What sectors are most affected by this dual scourge of forced labour and child labour?

[Elizabeth Kwan]

The sectors involved would be numerous. It really depends on the country. You're talking about a whole region, but I would say that in agriculture, in textiles, in mining.... There are all sorts of sectors that involve either forced labour or child labour. Of course, not every company does this, but definitely it's a lot more prevalent than in Canada.

I think that the concerns in these sectors about forced labour and child labour are represented by the commissioner we have, who looks at these critical areas and sectors in trade.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Some studies say we should even get ride of the famous “fair trade” label. Even in that case, it seems that child labour and forced labour are still widespread.

Do you give the same warning?

[Elizabeth Kwan]

Yes, we do. The same would apply for not just child labour and forced labour, but also for the greenwashing of environmental labels as well.

Supply chains are very complex and deep, so to actually be able to verify that there is no child or forced labour or greenwashing of environmental labelling is doable, but very difficult. It is something that Canada pursues as a policy.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

In the negotiations and talks regarding a potential trade agreement, which might be done, concretely, to impose requirements or establish adequate verification mechanisms to avoid doing business with companies that engage in greenwashing, as you said, or that put children to work, or force people to work?

[Lily Chang]

I certainly think that the first thing to do is, when we're negotiating those agreements, include in them that they are required to abide by the ILO conventions. Then of course there needs to be monitoring.

What's in writing is not always what actually happens on the ground, but we need to start off with actually having the words in the contract.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We'll go on to Mr. Masse for six minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Ms. Chang, maybe I could follow up on that. You're asking specifically that it be written into the agreement, similar to what we have in the new Canada-U.S.-Mexico agreement—the USMCA or NAFTA 2.0 or whatever you want to call it.

One of the problems we've had in the past is that, when we've had environment and labour outside the agreement, they're separate chapters that aren't enforceable. Are you asking for it be written into the context of the agreement, so it's not like a satellite orbiting around, which is independent and unenforceable?

[Lily Chang]

Absolutely. If we think these things are important and important to Canadian workers, they're important to the workers in the countries that we are contracting with. We want them to be part of the main agreement, so that they're enforceable as well.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

We focus on the environment and labour, and part of labour has been child labour. Do you know if there's been any thought or consideration of having a separate chapter on child labour? That's one of the things that gets overlooked at times.

I'm wondering at this point in time, especially with some of the countries we're dealing with here, whether having a separate agreement on child labour might bring more attention. I throw that out there as a possibility.

[Lily Chang]

If it's something that we are concerned about, and we think it might be stronger to have a separate chapter on child labour, then it's a good idea to do that. Definitely, whatever protections we can put in place.... We want to have these agreements with Indo-Pacific countries, and whatever is strongest in making sure that workers there are protected would be a good idea.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'd like to follow up with either Ms. Kwan or Ms. Chang on an issue I've raised that even with our own departments didn't have a good answer for, in my opinion. It's about the sales and agreements related to arms manufacturing. Some of these countries have some issues with regard to civilian populations and use. I don't like where some of Canada's small arms and larger arms have gone. I'm wondering if there's been any thought with regard to that.

I've been trying to determine where in the process to flag this as an issue as we go down the road. It doesn't appear to be one that comes up independently.

Do you know if any thought has been given to that? I'm really interested in that.

[Lily Chang]

Elizabeth, do you want to go ahead with that?

[Elizabeth Kwan]

Sure. Thank you for your question.

Specifically, as far as I know, I don't believe that any of our trade agreements have that specific mention of arms or arms production. I know that sometimes—not arms production necessarily, but on a segue I'm adding a bit here—the production of goods gets, how shall I say, laundered. The country that has high emissions or poor labour standards would then export to another country that is acceptable under our rules, our trade agreements and that sort of thing.

Again, it is something that Canada is very serious about in all of those respects. Whether it's arms or the production of other things, we have to be very diligent in terms of strong trade agreements, and we have to be able to follow up, monitor and enforce when we see that something is not in compliance.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Really quickly, to Mr. David, I was at the Stellantis announcement today. It was a very good announcement. We've been after this for a while, so it's really positive.

We haven't talked much about battery recycling and it's one of the things where there's an opportunity. Have you been involved in any of that? Do you have any suggestions for how we could advance on battery recycling? That seems to be something that is missing from the equation of the whole plan right now.

[J.S. David]

I can tell you, sir, that it has to be part of the equation. In my presentation, I have the full cycle from exploration to recycling.

For now, for us, what we know how to do is the exploration, producing the oxide and producing the precursor for the battery people. This is our field of expertise. There is no doubt we need the full cycle here in Canada.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'd hate for this to become what we have for plastics—exporting that to the Philippines and other places because of a lax following of treaties that we've signed. I don't want to be a producer of batteries and then dump them into third world countries. We have to get in front of this and not try to play catch-up.

[J.S. David]

I fully agree.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We have two minutes until the start of the vote. I'm asking for some direction from the committee. Do you want to suspend? We can all vote here with the vote app and then resume our meeting, or we can adjourn. What is the desire of the committee?

We're certainly going to vote. Do you want to continue with our meeting after the vote? We can vote right here.

I'll suspend the meeting, and then I'll resume the meeting. Is everybody okay with that?

Are you, Mr. Savard-Tremblay?

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Personally, I agree with that, Madam Chair.

If there is still a half-hour of meeting left after the vote, that will leave us time to conclude the discussions with these witnesses.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Okay, I'll suspend the meeting, and we will resume after the vote.

If we all want to vote right from here or wherever you are, as soon as everyone has voted, we don't have to wait the 10 minutes. We can resume as long as all of our members have been able to vote without any problem.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I'm okay with that, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

The meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

The meeting is resumed.

We'll go to Mr. Martel for five minutes, please.