International Trade Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Virani, you have five minutes, please.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thanks.

I want to thank all the witnesses.

I'll direct some of my questions to you, Ms. Coumans and Mr. Thomson, but with a bit of a preamble.

Obviously you've heard different types of questions from some of the members here. One thing that's critically clear—pardon the pun—is that the race for critical minerals is on. Mining is not going away any time soon. In fact, it's probably going to intensify around the planet, particularly on the continent of Africa. There our biggest competitor is China, as I think we all know. What we're trying to do is ensure that the mining that exists right now continues to be done to a better standard. I think you will probably find unanimity here. Things can be done better. I say that as a parliamentarian and a former human rights lawyer and parliamentary secretary to Minister Ng.

I'll say to MiningWatch and Oxfam that I think you're seeking further powers, roles and responsibilities, and that's completely fair. I think—and it should be clear to Canadians and parliamentarians—that what we've done so far, and what we're doing, are also fair. The “towards sustainable mining” initiative is a good one. We led on that, and nine countries are participating now. I think the fact that we created a CORE.... I appreciate that you have concerns about CORE's powers, but the fact that we have a CORE—we're the only nation on earth that does—is important. They've already started receiving cases—13 so far—and launched a garment study, which they're hoping to publish soon. These are important steps.

I think it's also important to talk about gender inclusivity and acknowledge that on trade, Mr. Thomson, we are the government responsible for having a gender chapter included in the renegotiation of CUSMA. We are working to take steps, but I candidly take, in open and good faith, your criticism that more needs to be done and that you want it done more quickly.

Apropos of that, I'm wondering about something in particular that I personally worked on: the relaunch of the RBC, the “responsible business conduct abroad” strategy. This is a question for both Ms. Coumans and Mr. Thomson. We tried to give that some incentives. One of the incentives I'm talking about is, “You will be deprived of trade commissioner services unless you agree to abide by this new strategy.” We're trying to give it a “quid pro quo”, so to speak.

Ms. Coumans, I'm quite concerned by the fact that you said you're not able to access which companies operating abroad have signed on to previous integrity declarations. Can you give us your opinion about this quid pro quo that we included in the new RBC strategy? Second, are you able to access, right now, whether company A operating abroad has signed on to such an undertaking pursuant to the new RBC code of conduct?

It's over to you, Ms. Coumans.

[Catherine Coumans]

There are a number of things.

To answer your immediate question, no, we still cannot access that information. In fact, I've just recently been in touch—we are constantly in touch—with embassies. When we find human rights or environmental abuses, we very often alert embassies. We never get a call back saying, “Actually, we're very concerned about this. Come and talk to us.” We have to push to get a meeting at all.

Right now I'm dealing with Baru Gold in Indonesia. It's on a very small island. I wanted to know whether Baru Gold signed an integrity agreement with the embassy in Jakarta in Indonesia and was told that this information was confidential.

That answers your question.

I'll briefly correct something. We've all been talking about the upcoming mining boom in relation to energy transition minerals and metals. I think now is exactly the time—before this boom happens, or as it's starting to happen—to strengthen the instruments we have: the non-judicial instrument—the CORE—and the judicial instrument we need.

I want to make it really clear that the “towards sustainable mining” protocol and e3 Plus are voluntary mechanisms. I've now heard it misstated again, before a committee, that nine countries have adopted this legislation. That is incorrect; countries or nations do not adopt this legislation. It is not mandatory. Mining associations and chambers of commerce are adopting these standards. The chambers of commerce and—

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thanks, Ms. Coumans. I want to give Mr. Thomson a chance to jump in.

Can you comment on the due diligence standard? There are lots of things floating out there. Bill S-211, John McKay's bill, is coming out of committee. There's the potential Peter Julian bill. There's also the mandate given to Minister O'Regan.

Among those three, do you have a preferred vehicle for getting a due diligence standard legislated, Mr. Thomson?

[Ian Thomson]

I think that will be the key: moving beyond the strategies Global Affairs Canada has had for a number of years and actually bringing about legislation. Whether it comes through a private member's bill or a government bill, it's important to cover all human rights n all sectors of the economy and to build in that redress for people whose human rights have been harmed.

If I had my way, I would prefer a government bill. I think the government has made a commitment to bring in a bill to protect people's human rights when Canadian companies operate abroad. I would like to see them follow through on that.

I'm pleased that Mr. Julian took the initiative to table legislation that could be a model picked up and implemented by the government. I think his bill has everything we need to bring about a comprehensive due diligence framework.

[Arif Virani, Liberal, Parkdale—High Park, ON]

Thank you to both of you for your very important testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thanks very much.

Monsieur Savard-Tremblay, you have two and a half minutes.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

My question is for Ms. Coumans, once again.

In a report published in 2022, the Justice and Corporate Accountability Project stated that serious acts of violence had been committed by a Canadian mining company in Guatemala. It involved environmental contamination and harm to human health.

According to the report on the activities conducted by certain Canadian officials in 2010 and 2011 to defend the mining company's interests, the officials undermined the efforts of Mayan indigenous communities to access the Inter-American Human Rights System and to defend their rights before it.

To your knowledge, is that the only documented case in which Canadian officials are reported to have sought to prevent victims of abuses from being heard?

[Catherine Coumans]

That case has been extremely well documented. It's an incredibly important case. That's the case against Goldcorp, in which Goldcorp was asked by the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights to cease operations because of the concerns the commission had for the human rights abuses of the Mayan people at the Goldcorp mine, the Marlin mine.

The Government of Guatemala was asked to issue what they call “precautionary measures” that will stop the operation of the mine. Immediately on the weekend, the embassy in Guatemala got in touch with Ottawa, and actions were undertaken—this came out through access to information documents—to protect the interests of Goldcorp. Those were extensive. They've now been detailed in that report.

We know that this happens all the time. We bring complaints and concerns into the public realm. As soon as an issue is elevated to the fact that it's in the media in Canada, we see embassies go into action. We see ambassadors go out and cut ribbons. We see even op-eds being written by ambassadors, saying that this is a great company and that it has full support from Canada. We see embassies jump into action when Canadian companies are threatened through reputational risk because of their human rights and environmental impacts.

We see this all the time. It hasn't been documented as well as that report, but it will be.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Cannings, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you. I would like to continue on with Ms. Coumans.

We've heard lines of questioning from both the Conservatives and the Liberals here that have emphasized the need for mining. I'm very much behind the need for mining for various reasons and not just for the things we have to do to fight climate change. I was the natural resources critic for six years for the NDP, so I know PDAC well and I know MAC well.

The context of these questions seems to be that we can't do mining and at the same time protect human rights and the environment. That's what we're talking about here. We're talking about measures that would help us make sure that we protect human rights and the environment while Canadian companies are mining abroad.

I'm wondering if I could get a fairly quick answer from you: Can we do this? Can we still do the mining we need, to get the materials we need, and protect human rights and the environment?

[Catherine Coumans]

Just briefly, there's a major argument right now that in order to have the energy transition that we need, we have to do more mining. We would really oppose that idea. There will have to be some new mining, but there needs to be far, far more recycling and technology developed, for batteries especially, that doesn't rely very heavily on metals.

That is happening. The battery industry is moving in that direction. They are no longer wanting to use cobalt and many of the other metals that we're still pushing companies to go and mine. That's number one.

Number two, the only way that mining can be done better.... I'm speaking from 23 years' experience. Watching TSM and watching [Technical difficulty—Editor] e3 Plus, I can see that these voluntary measures from the Government of Canada and voluntary measures from the industry associations don't work. We really need measures that have more teeth. We really need mandatory environmental and human rights due diligence legislation. This is where things are moving in Europe. France has already passed such legislation. The European Union is considering it right now.

Canada really needs to get serious. We can't take small baby steps anymore. Bill S-211 doesn't go nearly far enough. It doesn't consider all human rights and it doesn't actually ask companies to stop using slave labour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We go now to Mr. Martel, please. You have five minutes.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you to the witnesses.

My question is for Ms. McDonald, and perhaps also for Ms. Coumans.

In Canada, we have the means to ensure that our laws are upheld. I would like to know what could be done to more effectively ensure that our laws are upheld outside the country as well.

I will ask Ms. McDonald to begin.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Ms. McDonald may have left.

Mr. Martel, just hold on. I want to make sure you have your time. I don't think Ms. McDonald....

They told us they had just over an hour. I think that hour is up and that they've left. I'm assuming Ms. McDonald is no longer with us, or her colleague. Neither one of them is with us.

Mr. Martel, we're going to start over again with your questioning. We'll start your five minutes over and you can direct your questions.... Dr. Coumans and Mr. Thomson are the ones who are here, from Oxfam and from MiningWatch Canada.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Ms. Coumans, I would like to know how you define a Canadian mining company.

[Catherine Coumans]

There are various definitions, but the most basic one is a company that is headquartered in Canada.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

In Canada, we have the means to ensure that our laws are upheld. I know you have talked about this a lot, but I would like to know how things differ in other countries. It is different here, of course, with the resources we have, but what could we improve in other countries so that our laws are upheld?

[Catherine Coumans]

That's a really important question. It goes to the core of what we're talking about today.

Right now, Canada cannot enforce the laws and rules that we have for mining in Canada. We can't extend those laws and rules to mining overseas. What we can do is require any Canadian company that's headquartered in Canada to do what we call environmental and human rights due diligence. This means that the company would now be required by law to review all the operations of all of its subsidiaries and contractors to see if these operations were possibly harming human rights or the environment. Then the company would have to report on the risk assessment that they've done.

It goes beyond that. This is like the reporting requirement in Bill S-211 right now on slave labour and child labour. On mandatory human rights and environmental due diligence, once they've reported on it, they'd also have to show what they've done to mitigate or to stop the harm that they're doing. If they're using slave labour—because we have two Canadian companies right now in the Uighur territory in China that are very likely using slave labour—they have to not just report that they are or possibly are, but they have to stop.

Then there's the final piece, which is that if people are harmed by a Canadian company, they can bring a case to Canadian court.

We believe this suite of sanctions, issues and encouragements—because this is really to prevent harm—will actually really force the Canadian industry to change the way it operates. They actually have consequences, unlike the “towards sustainable mining” protocol or e3 Plus. These voluntary measures have no consequences. There have to be consequences for companies to take it seriously.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

We talked about the ombudsman. I would like to know if you are aware of a case in which the ombudsman helped changed certain practices in mining companies in other countries.

[Catherine Coumans]

Up until now, no. She's been operating for five years. She has not completed any cases yet. We know that there are at least two cases in front of her. These are cases of two Canadian mining companies that are operating in China in the Uighur territory. The concern is that they are possibly—maybe likely—using slave labour in their operations. We will see how she does on that case, but so far, in five years, she has not completed any cases on any mining operations overseas.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

I have a minute left.

I would like to know why you think mining companies choose to operate in other countries and not in Canada when we often have the same resources here.

[Catherine Coumans]

That's a very good question.

Canada is very rich in minerals, and we do have many of the resources here. I don't know. I wish you could have asked that question of our exploration PDAC friends, but they've left.

I don't know why they go abroad, but what companies will tell you is that they go where the resources are. They're always looking for lucrative ore bodies and they will go anywhere. They will go onto tiny islands in the Pacific. They'll go into [Technical difficulty—Editor] so I don't think they want to be restricted to any one country.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Mr. Miao for five minutes, please.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for joining us today on this important issue.

I'd first like to address my question to Mr. Thomson.

How does Oxfam Canada work with Canadian mining companies and other stakeholders to promote best practices and regulations to protect the environment and human rights in the context of mining?