International Trade Committee on Feb. 6th, 2023

[Ian Thomson]

That's a very good question.

As I mentioned in my presentation, Oxfam is a global network of people working to end inequality and poverty. We engage with Canadian companies in numerous countries and with Canadian embassies in numerous countries to see how Canadian mining can become a force for good instead of a force that harms people and further impoverishes communities.

We believe that the solutions have to originate here in Canada and that a human rights due diligence framework will set the bar for how our companies operate in many jurisdictions around the world. It will also send a signal to the Canadian embassies that were referred to earlier that there are minimum standards that are required of Canadian companies and that we need to make that enforceable. That's been the big gap to date.

We also have partners in other countries that have come to testify at committee to say that they won't bring a complaint to the CORE ombudsperson office until it gets stronger powers. I think they recognize the importance of an accountability mechanism in Canada. They want to use an accountability mechanism in Canada, but we have not provided one yet.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

What are the chances of driving a mining company to relocate their headquarters outside of Canada rather than continuing their Canadian identity in running their businesses?

[Ian Thomson]

I think we've heard a lot today about competitiveness. I think we're beyond the point where Canada and Canadian companies will be competing on their technical expertise. I think technical expertise exists in many countries around the world.

What is going to distinguish us when a government in another nation is trying to decide who will help them in developing their mineral resources? I think it's having a robust framework that says we are a country that has human rights standards and environmental standards and that they apply to our companies when they operate abroad. If Canada is in competition with others in order to build the mines of tomorrow, this has to be part of our competitive advantage.

What's missing right now is that we don't have that comprehensive framework in Canada that would allow us to go around the world and say that our companies will operate responsibly. That could become our calling card if we were to introduce a comprehensive framework that applies to every Canadian company.

With voluntary systems, as Ms. Coumans correctly pointed out, companies can pick and choose whether they pick up the e3 Plus system of the PDAC or not. Some may and some may not. We don't know how many are implementing that system. It's not clear to me, because it's completely voluntary.

What we need to do is raise the bar for all companies, and I think that can become our calling card internationally and make host communities have more confidence with the companies they're relating with. Today, when you meet people from a host community, they speak to people from other communities who've hosted a Canadian mine, and there are horror stories they hear. They hear about all of these atrocities and these abuses. Why would a community invite us in to develop their mineral resources with this sort of track record?

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you for sharing that.

How do you plan to achieve the long-term goals of Oxfam Canada that you mentioned?

[Ian Thomson]

We believe that having a people-centred approach to development is key. Local people have to have the information about the projects that are being proposed in their area. They also need to be able to exercise the right to decide whether and how projects are developed. This community consent is critical for us as Oxfam. It is something we're promoting with governments around the world. It's also an important part of reviewing and assessing projects that come forward.

We're also working with the Government of Canada and governments in other countries on improving impact assessment processes. We do believe a strong impact assessment process will lead to a better project in the end.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Thomson.

We now go to Mr. Baldinelli for five minutes, please.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'll just follow up. My colleagues and I have been talking.

Ms. Coumans, you raised the example of the two cases in China that are now being looked at by CORE.

For my understanding, in your estimation, would that be a company that has headquartered itself in Canada for the tax benefits and the nameplate, but is primarily a Chinese company operating in China?

[Catherine Coumans]

Actually, no. One of these companies also has or had an operation in Canada and also one in the U.S., if I'm not mistaken. This company is also operating in other jurisdictions.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Do you know when reports are going to be developed and submitted for those cases?

[Catherine Coumans]

The process of the CORE, while she's investigating cases, is rather oblique, so I don't really know where this is going or how that's going to be investigated, but it is now her obligation, as I think she has taken these cases. She's going to have to investigate, somehow, whether or not these two Canadian mining companies operating in the Uighur district in China are actually using slave labour. I'm not quite sure how she's going to do that.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Just to follow up, Mr. Thomson and Ms. Coumans, last April the government launched a new responsible business conduct strategy, actually making a difference this time. Are you concerned that this is again just another Liberal promise?

The government's April 2022 announcement reads, “The new Responsible Business Conduct Strategy was completed following extensive public consultations”. I want to hear from your both. Were you consulted as part of that?

[Ian Thomson]

Yes, we participated in a public consultation. We urged the government to take a legislative route and not to continue on with their renewal of this strategy that has been the focus for so many years.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Great. Thank you.

Ms. Coumans, can you respond as well?

[Catherine Coumans]

It's the same, actually. We were also consulted and we also strongly urged them to set out some standards and ask companies to voluntarily comply with those standards.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I have just one last question for both witnesses.

Nearly four years later, the advisory body to CORE has not met, I believe, since November of last year. Are any actions taking place at all with that advisory council, to your knowledge?

[Catherine Coumans]

I'm not aware it even met in November of last year. I don't know that it met at all after civil society and the unions left.

I know they were trying to reconstitute it. I'm not sure if that actually happened and I have no idea what it's doing, if anything.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

Madam Chair, those are my questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

We now go to Mr. Sheehan for five minutes, please.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you very much to the presenters, as well as to Mr. Savard-Tremblay for bringing forward this study on how Canadian mining companies are operating abroad, dealing with human rights, the environment, and a whole bunch of matters. Thank you very much.

I'll direct my question to MiningWatch, and maybe Mr. Thomson could update us.

We've talked about a number of countries where these atrocities are happening. As a government, we're undertaking to help eradicate them through legislation we're currently working on. It's in the mandate letter for cabinet ministers, including Seamus O'Regan.That work is under way, and those consultations are happening. This information will help to inform them further.

One of the things I started to think about today is, where are we at? Do you have information relating to Canadian mining companies in relation to Russia and the Russian sanctions? There were a number of Canadian mining companies operating in Russia, sometimes through a joint venture and sometimes by themselves. Do you have any information or updates about the sanctions? Some Canadian companies, such as Kinross, were also operating there, I believe.

Perhaps I'll start with Ian in the room and then go online to MiningWatch for a perspective of where we are at. How are the sanctions working against this illegal, horrendous war that is killing people and resulting in rapes and a whole bunch of horrible things? Let's speak to that issue.

I'll start with Mr. Thomson.

[Ian Thomson]

I regret that as Oxfam, we don't have much involvement with mining activities in Russia or in tracking the activities of Canadian companies operating mines in Russia. I can't really comment or answer your question.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

That's fair enough. I just wanted to see if I could get an update.

MiningWatch, do you have any information on Canadian mining companies in Russia?

[Catherine Coumans]

We were following Kinross. As you mentioned, Kinross actually left Russia. It took a while, but it did leave. That was the main company we were following.

We're also concerned about where the products of mines that are owned by oligarchs end up. There is a private company called Deep Sea Mining Finance that is owned by a Russian oligarch. It wants to mine in the deep-sea waters off the coast of Papua New Guinea and process those metals in China. Those metals would then be sold on the open market. Whether Canadian companies are involved in buying those metals from a mine owned by an oligarch is where it gets more complicated.

I'd like to see what Canada can do to track those metals and make sure we don't buy metals, or trade in metals, that have been mined by Russian companies overseas.

[Terry Sheehan, Liberal, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you for that, and thank you for your work.

To MiningWatch, you mentioned a number of countries and places that you're concerned with. How do you measure any potential changes that happen in those countries? What are your metrics? Help me understand how we can do a better job in those sorts of analyses. What kind of work, if you want to delve into it, would you do to move the yardstick forward in those countries? Can you also give us some examples?

[Catherine Coumans]

I named an awful lot of issues and I named a lot of countries. All of those issues that I named and all of those countries that I named are cases that we work on, and have worked on, in MiningWatch for over 23 years. I will be detailing some of those in a brief that we will provide to this committee.

It's really difficult to say anything more about metrics, other than to say that year over year, we're finding the number of cases that are coming before us is relentless. These are new cases. These are cases of people being harmed this year or last year.

We had hoped in the more than 20 years that we've now been operating that we would see an improvement. This is almost a failing on our part. We feel sometimes that we haven't been able, through our work with communities and through our efforts to publicize these concerns, to raise them with the Canadian government and bring people to Canada to speak to parliamentarians and speak to civil servants. We had hoped that there would be more improvement, and there hasn't been. The problem is as big as it's ever been, and now with the coming mining boom, we're dreading how this is going to increase the workload even more. The workload is not the problem. The problem is the actual harm being done to people.

I want to emphasize that this is not just a few bad apples and it's not just the small companies that don't have any resources to pay to do things the right way. One of the companies we work on is Barrick Gold, which was sued in November last year in Canadian court. What was it for? It was for people who have been shot and killed by mine security and by police guarding Barrick's mine in Tanzania.

This is almost the biggest gold mining company in the world. I think it's now the second-biggest gold mining company in the world. It has plenty of resources to do things right. This is the third time that Barrick has been sued over these same issues at the same mine.

There was a court case filed in 2013 that was settled in 2015. There was another court case filed in 2020, which is ongoing in the U.K., and now there's been another case filed in Canada over the same issues of human rights abuses and excess use of force by mine security and police guarding the mine on behalf of Barrick.

So—

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Dr. Coumans. I'm sorry. The time is up.

We'll move on to Mr. Savard-Tremblay for two and a half minutes, please.