Evidence of meeting #48 for International Trade in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was local.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
You talk about local workers. Do you have any data on the ratios of local workers to Canadian workers that the company takes abroad?
Geologist, Eval Minerals, As an Individual
From my personal experience and my experience over the 18-odd years I was at Cambior, we worked quite well in general with the mining industry.
To be honest, I would tell you that, when you come to a country where you don't speak the language, you obviously rely on people you trust. So we would take some of the people who worked with us for the first two or three years. After that, we would try to keep it at no more than 5% Canadian workers to about 90% to 95% local workers.
That's also the proportion we were trying to maintain across industry. I'm thinking of service companies such as geophysics, drilling or laboratories, for example.
In this regard, I certainly have more experience in Chile, Peru, Colombia, Argentina and Brazil. Unfortunately, it may not be as fashionable to talk about it now, but in the six years I spent in China, we had roughly the same ratios, even though it was more difficult to speak a Chinese language than Portuguese or Spanish.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
I can tell you that, in Colombia, I saw with my own eyes a former Canadian mining company, which had become Chinese, arrive with a truckload of prisoners from the People's Republic of China. It wasn't exactly hiring local artisans. Let's put it that way.
You say that reluctantly, given that it is a very personal experience. As you point out, it was with the company you worked for—
Geologist, Eval Minerals, As an Individual
We also worked in collaboration with embassies. We knew each other. I was on local committees in the countries where I worked.
Colombia has never been a good reference country. Name me one mining company in Colombia that actually meets Canadian standards. There aren't any. You won't even get one on the fingers of one hand.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
I will find for you the name of the mining company I visited that had ended up under Chinese ownership. I'll search for it in my Facebook post as soon as we finish the meeting; otherwise I'll waste too much time.
I want to turn to you, Ms. Vasquez-Olguin. You are a coordinator in Latin America. Can you tell us about the mining industry's relationship with local populations and local governments? We are told that the relationship is harmonious and that the industry's reputation is good.
Coordinator, Latin America, Gender Justice and Extractivism, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
I can speak from my opinion or I can show you facts. We have more than 500 different conflicts going on in the entire southern continent—Meso-America and South America.
That's a fact. It's not an opinion. It's happening right now in the courts of different countries and in the field.
Sometimes it could be harmonious from the exterior, because our countries are looking for income and finding some ways to get some income. Part of that is monetizing nature. The consequences of that are experienced by the communities. The communities are going out to the streets, mining sites and exploration sites and saying “no”, or showing the results of this.
One of our partners last year published a report on 11 cases of mining activities in different countries, from El Salvador to Argentina. They are inspiring and terrible. You can see persecution, pollution, contamination, health risks and evident harm in their bodies because of the pollution.
What can I tell you? My opinion is that it's terrible. I think it's not as good as it shows.
The fact is that many hundreds and thousands of communities are out there fighting against mining. We cannot hide that under the rug. It's happening now. Just look at it.
We can do better. That's the thing. We can do much better, if that's the interest.
Liberal
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Thank you all for being here today. I'm just going to continue with Ms. Vasquez-Olguin.
You mentioned these hundreds of conflicts in South America and perhaps in Meso-America as well—in Ecuador, Colombia, Peru and Chile.
What proportion of those conflicts would you say involve Canadian companies?
Coordinator, Latin America, Gender Justice and Extractivism, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
I cannot give you an exact number right now. I don't think there is any pride in saying there are very few. One is one too many.
My own management does not recommend that I mention numbers. I will respect the authority of my bosses, who say to not name names.
Only one is one too many. We can talk about Jachal in San Juan, Argentina. That's a Canadian company. We can talk about Catamarca in Argentina, where there's another Canadian company. We can talk about Rio Blanco. We can talk about El Salvador, where a pregnant woman was killed being a water defender. Come on. What is going on?
One is one too many. If I say “only two”, it's too many. If we want the numbers right now, the environmental justice website shows you all the conflicts in the world. You can focus on the continent, and it's on fire.
There is no pride in saying that there are only a few.
Coordinator, Latin America, Gender Justice and Extractivism, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
These bills will give voice to those who are not able to voice their conflicts and their suffering in [Inaudible—Editor]. We will have a strong, really powerful voice to raise concerns and to bring them to justice in a fair way. We want only justice, and we want even preventive justice, which means, I'm not going to do this if the consequence is going to be really hard. That's the idea: Give them real power; give them fangs to bite; give them power to really scare, and that's terrible but it's the only way we have, because profit is not scared, usually. It's not easily scared.
I would say to give the ombudsperson power enough to pursue justice for those who cannot do it is amazing. Establish the standard of business that we require in Canada abroad. That would put pride in the Canadian name, not in the low numbers of injustice happening but in high numbers of things well done. I think that's much better.
I'm from Costa Rica—a tiny little detail. Costa Rica has the medal of honour of being one of the few countries in the continent that fought against a Canadian mining company and won, because we had one of the strongest ombudspersons in the region. I can tell you it's possible and it's needed and it's great to have it.
NDP
Coordinator, Latin America, Gender Justice and Extractivism, KAIROS: Canadian Ecumenical Justice Initiatives
It's a beautiful country.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
If I have some time left, I will turn to Ms. Gingrich, with the steelworkers.
Thank you to the steelworkers for all you do. It's a very important voice in my riding, in the mining industry, with the Teck smelter in Trail. I appreciate their work a lot.
I'm wondering if you could expand again on what I've been asking of Ms. Vasquez-Olguin in terms of what we need to do, and why the bills that are before us are important. One of the other witnesses, Ms. Dhalla, said that Canadian companies need to do abroad what they do here, and be held to the same standards.
Assistant to the National Director, United Steelworkers Union
Bill C-263 would be to expand and rectify some of the things that we think are wrong with the CORE. That was something we supported from the beginning, but once it came into place, our view was that there wasn't enough power within that position for the ombudsperson.
Bill C-263 would see a CORE with more teeth, if I can put it that way, with the power to compel evidence and testimony, for example, which is not possible at the moment.
Regarding Bill C-262, there are several parts of that where it would require real due diligence along supply chains and it would put the onus on the company to identify potential issues along the supply chain—whether it's environmental, human rights or violation of labour rights—and then actually prevent and mitigate those and have that responsibility to do so. Then it would provide access to remedy within the Canadian legal system if the company doesn't meet its obligations. Those are some very important aspects of those two bills that we have supported.
Liberal
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Mr. Gauthier, we hear that the mining industry operates in a certain way in Canada, but does things differently abroad.
Is there a regulatory difference? Could the mining industries operate abroad like they do in Canada?
Are there that many differences between regulations in Canada and abroad?
Geologist, Eval Minerals, As an Individual
First of all—I apologize to others who have commented —all self-respecting Canadian companies work according to Canadian standards. Even though there are habits in other countries that are very different from ours, Canadian companies work according to Canadian standards.
Next, I heard the cases of the Rio Blanco project and mines in the Cajamarca region being cited. As far as I know, these are not Canadian companies.
With respect to the Colombian case, I repeat that there are many mining companies, and some may have a Canadian shareholder, but they are still what I call artisanal companies. It's pretty obvious when you see their facilities. It's artisanal. It may be a simple mill, but it's not representative of large Canadian companies; it's totally different. I am telling you, they are two different worlds.
However, some countries don't tolerate Canadian companies working according to, let's say, artisanal standards.
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
From your early days in the industry to today, have you seen any progress in terms of the environment?
Geologist, Eval Minerals, As an Individual
We have gone from darkness to today. It's amazing. If you remember, in the late 1970s, Canadian companies, in Canada, were terrible. It was terrible outside the country too, in 1989. Everyone has been reined in sufficiently.
There will always be mistakes. Unfortunately, some Canadian companies have made mistakes, and I include Cambior. At one point, we had a problem in Guyana. Mistakes were made because of a lack of knowledge of the situation abroad and a lack of learning. It's very unfortunate because we paid dearly for that mistake, and it was really a mistake in the process of learning.
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Can Canadian embassies play an important role for Canadian mining companies?
Geologist, Eval Minerals, As an Individual
Their role is beyond essential. Before the problem arrives in Canada, an embassy has to be very proactive. The embassy is there to help and monitor Canadian companies in some cases, and to make sure they are following all the principles. I've been through this with several embassies.
The majority of embassies are making efforts in this area. The majority of Canadians I've worked with over the years always made a point of registering with the embassy to inform them of what they were doing on the ground, even before a press release was issued here. The relationship between the mining company and the local communities is important, and it is the ambassador who attends to that. Personally, I can say that we have always had a good relationship with the embassies, despite the fact that it has quite often been very difficult.
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Basically, what are the big challenges for a Canadian mining company abroad? What further challenges does the industry have to manage when it is abroad?
Geologist, Eval Minerals, As an Individual
In addition to meeting the standards, there are several challenges. However, the standards are easy to meet: they are written in black and white.
What is difficult is integrating with the local culture. Unfortunately, that aspect is not documented. You don't find this aspect in the books. It might be possible to chronicle it, but that doesn't mean that you could solve the problems. You just have to hold talks and not rush things. You have to take the time to discuss things.
In every country I visited, the cultural issue was always a barrier, even more so than language.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much, Mr. Gauthier.
I'm sorry, Mr. Martel; your time is up.
We have Mr. Sheehan for five minutes, please.