Evidence of meeting #64 for International Trade in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was litigation.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Aaron Fowler  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Michael Cannon  Director, Softwood Lumber Division, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Michael Owen  General Counsel and Executive Director, Trade Law Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 64 of the Standing Committee on International Trade. Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Therefore, members will be attending in person and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you are not speaking. With regard to interpretation, for those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. I will remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair. Please note that, during the meeting, it is not permitted to take pictures in the room or screenshots on Zoom.

Should any technical challenges arise, please notify me. Please note that we may need to suspend for a few minutes as we need to ensure all members can participate fully.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, January 30, 2023, the committee is beginning its study of U.S. duties on Canadian exports of certain lumber products.

We have with us today, from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Aaron Fowler, associate assistant deputy minister, trade policy and negotiations; Michael Cannon, director, softwood lumber division; and Michael Owen, general counsel and executive director, trade law bureau.

Welcome, everyone. We're going to start with opening remarks and then we will proceed to rounds of questions.

Mr. Fowler, I believe you're going to make the opening statement for up to five minutes. Then we'll open up the floor to questions.

Please go ahead.

4:30 p.m.

Aaron Fowler Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you very much, Chair.

Good afternoon to you and to all of the other committee members. Thank you very much for inviting me here today to speak to you about the important work Government of Canada officials are doing to advance Canada’s interests in the ongoing softwood lumber dispute with the United States.

Canada’s partnership with the United States is fundamental to our foreign and economic policy. Our softwood lumber industry provides well-paying jobs and is a key economic anchor for communities across the country. Canadian softwood lumber helps build American homes and workplaces, exemplifying the deep integration between our two economies.

President Biden’s recent visit to Ottawa confirmed the significance of the relationship between our two countries. While here, the Prime Minister and President Biden discussed a variety of shared priorities. Significantly, both the Prime Minister and Minister Ng raised the issue of the softwood lumber dispute directly with the President, emphasizing the harm that U.S. duties cause to Canadian producers and workers, as well as the communities they support, and to U.S. consumers as well.

Now more than ever, a resolution of the dispute is needed given the challenges facing the forestry sector, including wood fibre constraints and labour shortages. U.S. tariffs on softwood lumber exports are exacerbating the situation and creating unpredictable operating conditions for many Canadian companies.

The U.S. has imposed tariffs on most Canadian softwood lumber products since 2017. Currently, most Canadian companies are subject to a combined tariff rate of 8.59%. However, the U.S. continually adjusts tariff rates as part of its annual reviews, known as administrative reviews. This results in an unpredictable trading environment for the Canadian industry and in billions of dollars in unfairly collected duties.

These unfair U.S. duties also impact U.S. consumers, retailers and builders, who rely upon quality Canadian lumber to build American homes. These additional costs are particularly concerning now, at a time when inflationary pressures and high interest rates have already exacerbated housing affordability issues. Canadian softwood lumber products are critical to addressing U.S. production shortfalls and housing affordability. To put this into perspective, in 2021 U.S. producers supplied only about 70% of the U.S. demand for lumber—roughly 35 billion board feet—leaving a 30% shortfall, a gap that was largely filled with Canadian lumber products.

This sentiment has been conveyed frequently by the Prime Minister, by Minister Ng and by Ambassador Hillman when speaking with President Biden and his administration regarding the softwood lumber dispute.

Canada has repeatedly conveyed to the United States that we are ready to enter into meaningful conversations about realistic solutions that would be acceptable to both sides. A negotiated resolution to this dispute is in both parties' best interests. Unfortunately, we have yet to see a willingness on the part of the United States to engage in meaningful discussions.

The Government of Canada will continue to raise softwood lumber at every possible opportunity until this is resolved. We also will continue to work closely with partners across the industry and all provinces and territories to coordinate and maintain a team Canada approach to resolving the dispute.

To that end, Minister Ng continues to communicate regularly with partners and stakeholders across the country who are concerned about accessing the U.S. market. For example, on March 9, Minister Ng hosted a round-table discussion with stakeholders to hear their perspectives on industry trends and the impact of the softwood lumber dispute on their businesses and workforces.

In addition to our engagement with U.S. and Canadian partners, we are vigorously defending our interests through litigation under chapter 19 of NAFTA and chapter 10 of CUSMA and at the WTO. In total, Canada is currently pursuing 10 legal challenges along with other Canadian parties, including the softwood industry itself. Most recently, we established two different panels under NAFTA's chapter 19 to hear Canada's challenges regarding U.S. countervailing duty and anti-dumping duty orders, and we expect initial decisions in late 2023 or early 2024.

However, our legal challenges have not proceeded as quickly as we would hope. The timely adjudication of Canada's legal challenges before fair and impartial panels is a priority for the Government of Canada, and we are working closely with U.S. officials to ensure that our cases proceed swiftly. As in the past, we are confident that impartial panels will side with Canada and tangibly demonstrate that U.S. duties are unfair and unwarranted.

As I mentioned earlier, a negotiated solution continues to be in the best interests of both countries.

The Government of Canada continues to support the forestry sector, including by encouraging market diversification, supporting sustainable forest management, and promoting the role of the forestry sector in the fight against climate change.

At the same time, we will continue our ambitious agenda of legal challenges to defend Canada's interests. Successful legal challenge outcomes will strengthen Canada's negotiating position.

In the past, U.S. allegations have been judged to be unfounded, and we believe that this will again be the case.

Thank you for this opportunity to talk about the important work we are doing to advance the interests of the Canadian softwood lumber industry. I would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Kyle Seeback

Thank you, Mr. Fowler.

We'll proceed to our first round of questions.

Mr. Hoback, you have six minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here this afternoon.

Mr. Fowler, I feel for you today. You're defending something that is tough to defend, and you're put in a bad spot. There's no question about it.

You mentioned, in your comments that the minister's been meeting commonly with the industry stakeholders, yet when we talk to the industry stakeholders, they say the total opposite. They say she met with them on March 9, which is correct, but they actually met a year earlier, when she requested the industry get together and put forward a name for them to work with, and with the ministry and minister down in the U.S. The name was David MacNaughton.

What happened in that year? Why did that not happen? Industry put the name forward. They did everything the minister wanted them to do, and then it just went silent. Can you explain what happened and why she decided not to conclude? Was there advice given from the department not to move forward?

4:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Aaron Fowler

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the question.

Minister Ng held a round table, as I mentioned, on March 9 of this year—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Actually, it was just in time for the Biden visit.

4:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Aaron Fowler

—and she also held round tables with a similar group of companies in 2021 and again in 2022. As you can appreciate, ministerial engagement is only one avenue by which the department and the Government of Canada engage with this sector on this important file.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Would it have then been the department's fault for not taking the association members' person, Mr. MacNaughton, and forwarding it through, or is it the minister's fault this didn't happen?

4:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Aaron Fowler

The decision of whether or not to appoint a representative or an envoy on softwood lumber involves various considerations. There have been times in the past—this is a dispute that goes back to 1982—when we named an envoy to work with a counterpart in the United States. We've had mixed success with those approaches in the past.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Again, with a name like Mr. MacNaughton.... He was so close the last time, when he was the ambassador down there. At the last minute, it didn't happen, but he was very close. Here is somebody who knew the industry and the U.S. He checked all the boxes, as far as they were concerned. They were happy with him, yet somehow, for some reason, either between the minister's or your office, it didn't happen.

I guess they want to know why.

4:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Aaron Fowler

Thank you again, Mr. Chair, for the question.

As I said, there are various considerations that go into whether or when to appoint an envoy and who that envoy should be. I don't think anybody questions the expertise of the former ambassador—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Can you table the considerations that would be in the matrix used to make that decision so we can look at those?

4:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Aaron Fowler

In the past when we have used an envoy, there has typically been either the prospect for imminent or ongoing negotiations with the United States—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Then, at the time, there were no negotiations with the U.S. and no hope of having a negotiation, so you felt it just wasn't worth putting the effort in. Is that what you're saying?

4:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Aaron Fowler

I appreciate that you would like an answer to the questions you are asking, but if you would like me to answer the questions you're asking, then I'll need a couple of seconds to do that.

There are no ongoing negotiations with the United States on softwood lumber. There are regular engagements and discussions but no formal negotiations. The United States has made public statements to suggest they're open to these negotiations, but, in reality, we've seen nothing to suggest that the United States is open to negotiating a settlement on softwood lumber at this time.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Thank you, Mr. Fowler. I'll keep going here.

We got roughly $7.5 billion to $8 billion in tariffs collected by the U.S.

Is the government willing to backstop that money for the producers who are out that money? Is the government willing to say, “We'll make you whole”? Last time we settled at 75%. Are we willing to take 75% of that $8 billion and give it to our producers now? They're really hurting and they could use the cash. Lumber prices used to be around $1,200 to $1,600 or $1,000 a board foot. Now they're sitting around $300 a board foot.

Have there been talks in the industry about how the government could actually come in and prepay in lieu of collecting that tariff once you do negotiate a settlement?

4:45 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Aaron Fowler

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for the question.

The government has provided and continues to provide support to the softwood lumber industry in a variety of ways and through a variety of programs.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

In the budget, there is nothing there. There used to be $51 million.

I remembered when this happened that we had roughly $750 million committed to the industry. Has all that money been spent, or is there still money to be doled out, for lack of a better word, to support the sector?

4:45 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Aaron Fowler

On the specific amount you mentioned, I just want to confirm that you were referring to the softwood lumber action plan that was announced in 2017.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

That's correct. That was the first one.

4:45 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Aaron Fowler

That's a program administered by the Department of Natural Resources, so in terms of the funds that have been dispensed and what may remain, I would have to check with the officials from NRCan. That's not something that I know.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

Can I ask you to do that and file it with the committee afterwards?

4:45 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Aaron Fowler

Absolutely.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK

In terms of this budget then, did the department...or would that be Natural Resources that would have set aside the $50 million going forward? The minister is taking credit for it. The minister's talking about it. It's about diversification. It's about greening the industry. She's the one talking about it, not the Minister of Natural Resources, so I'm kind of curious.

Do you have control of those funds or does Natural Resources?

4:45 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Aaron Fowler

There are programs administered by NRCan that support the forest sector. There are programs administered by Global Affairs Canada that benefit, in part, the forest sector. We have to be careful in the design and delivery of programs, because if we were, for example, simply to pay those duties on behalf of the industry, that payment would be captured in the next administrative review by the United States, and it would result simply in higher duty rates going forward.