International Trade Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Did you get the information I asked of you earlier?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I do not, but maybe at next round we will try.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Okay.

Chapter 15, “Transparency, Anti-Corruption and Responsible Business Conduct” has been added to the agreement.

The government is very proud of this chapter. However, it includes voluntary measures, that only encourage companies to adopt internationally recognized guidelines and principles on responsible conduct and social responsibility. Ultimately, these are only voluntary codes. There is no follow‑up or verification mechanism included in this chapter.

How will you ensure the guidelines are followed?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

In Canada, we have a policy on responsible business conduct. We expect Canadian companies, when they operate here or abroad, to do so following the highest standards of corporate social responsibility and certainly to exercise responsible business conduct. Through that policy, there are mechanisms and recourse as well. It's in the trade agreement to ensure that we have a broad trade agreement that covers both goods and services but also the manner in which businesses do business.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

What are those accountability mechanisms?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Canadian businesses operating abroad are subject to responsible business conduct, and for businesses that use the services of either Export Development Canada or the trade commissioner service, there is an expectation of that. Not only is there an expectation of that, but if concerns are raised, we look into them and, in some circumstances, withdraw those very important services of the Canadian government.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kyle Seeback]

You have 10 seconds.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

With respect to my previous question, can you commit to providing us with a written response before the committee has completed its work?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I'll commit to getting you an answer.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kyle Seeback]

That's great.

We'll now go to Mr. Cannings for two and a half minutes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

I'm just going to turn now to the investor-state dispute mechanism section. As you know, these are mechanisms that the NDP has had trouble with in all the trade agreements that have come before us in recent years. The first CUFTA didn't have one because it was contained in a separate foreign investment protection agreement dating back to the 1990s, I think.

In this new revised version, it's been rolled into the actual trade agreement. I hear comments from you and other people during the debate that it's new and improved, that it's bigger and better, and I'm just wondering how it is different. You mentioned the agreements, and there's a non-derogation clause that outlines how they can't instigate these disputes with that in mind.

Has this been tested? How sure are you that this will protect Canadians from these sorts of disputes?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Thank you for that.

The Canada-Ukraine foreign investment promotion and protection agreement—FIPA—that was in place in 1995 is what has kind of come into this agreement. I think, as I said earlier in response to another question, this provision was very much requested by my Ukrainian colleagues, because they understood what's in front of them, which is a very high need on their part to attract investments. Canadian investors and businesses look to this as a mechanism that will give them that certainty, so it's a certainty going the other way.

To address the last part of your question, we've had no ISDS cases under our FIPA with Ukraine since 1995. We've had that with them for over 20 years or 30 years now, and there has not been one. I think that gives us a degree of confidence from that standpoint. There's that, but there's also Canada's retaining of the right to regulate—non-derogation—so this is not about an agreement that is a race to the bottom. This is about the ability to have the policy flexibility to maintain our ability to deal with issues like the environment or labour or indigenous rights.

I hope that answers that.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I haven't—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kyle Seeback]

Unfortunately, that's it.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

That's it. Okay.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kyle Seeback]

I gave you a little extra time there.

We'll now turn to Mr. Baldinelli for five minutes.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here, although I must say I'm extremely disappointed and, essentially, insulted that during your opening remarks, you chose to open up with criticism of me and my colleagues on this side, members of His Majesty's loyal opposition, for asking questions with regard to this trade agreement. Somehow, you said—and this was astounding—that we're somehow advancing Putin's agenda by asking questions with regard to a free trade agreement.

I want to bring some factual information forward. It must be remembered that it was a Conservative government in 1991 when Canada became the first western country to recognize Ukraine's independence from the Soviet Union, and it was a previous Conservative government led by Stephen Harper when Canada undertook Operation Unifier to bolster Canadian military training of the armed forces of Ukraine. It was the same Conservative government wherein the original CUFTA was negotiated between Canada and the Ukraine.

Minister, again, somehow your comments were not only extremely disappointing but also on the verge of insulting. You claim in your comments that somehow we're looking to delay second reading debate on this, yet your government failed to call it forward for almost two weeks. I see that Bill C-57 is not even on the House agenda for this week. Again, it is rather disappointing when you question us. The government controls its legislative agenda, not members of His Majesty's loyal opposition.

Minister, in the briefing note that was provided by staff, it says that Global Affairs Canada, in its March 2023 initial environmental assessment, concluded that modernization is “unlikely to result in significant negative environmental impacts.” However, within this agreement, on chapter 13, it talks about carbon pricing, a carbon tax, and measures to mitigate carbon leakage.

Are those types of provisions included in the CUSMA, CETA and CPTPP agreements that currently exist?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Let me thank the member for Niagara Falls for this question.

Because you are right near the Canada-U.S. border, you understand and you're very familiar with how important trade agreements are. Of course, it is the work of all of us as parliamentarians to be able to ask questions.

I think you misunderstood when you said that I was critical of your asking questions about this free trade agreement. Actually, to the contrary, I think it's the appropriate work of parliamentarians, like you and this committee, to be doing that.

What I would say around delays is that we've seen, on two occasions, when this bill was before the House, that Conservatives moved concurrence debates instead of talking about Bill C-57. I hope we can rely on you to support this bill. As I said in my opening remarks, I'm actually very confident that we can meet the moment that's before us, and I think we all can and should support Ukraine.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Madam Minister, again, your government controls the legislative agenda. For a two-week period, Bill C-57 somehow was not a priority. Somehow this week, it is not a priority.

As to my rights as a parliamentarian to discuss it at second reading, to debate it at second reading, I have yet to have that right, yet we're here. Building out what Mr. Cannings says, we are undertaking.... There seemed to have been a rush to get here for this prestudy, yet we have not even allowed our analysts the time. We were provided a briefing note the day before this meeting on a 700-page agreement, over 700 pages, and that briefing note was two pages.

Again, to Mr. Cannings' point, I think we're doing a disservice not only to our analysts but also to all parliamentarians, so that we can't provide the needed input and so that we can't get to the best agreement, one that benefits not only Canada but also Ukraine.

Again, talking about some of the comments earlier from my colleague, 60% of Ukrainian energy is coal and gas, and nuclear is a huge aspect and leadership position for Canada, as well as natural gas. How come there is no discussion of energy security within this agreement—energy co-operation and energy security?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kyle Seeback]

Mr. Baldinelli, that's your time.

Minister, try to answer that quickly. The time is up.

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

I'm so thrilled that this agreement has the highest environmental standards of all the agreements that we have with our trading partners.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kyle Seeback]

We'll go to Ms. Fortier

Ms. Fortier, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Minister.

I am pleased to ask you questions this morning.

You mentioned that, for the first time, an agreement contains a chapter on indigenous entrepreneurs. In my riding of Ottawa—Vanier, there is a large Inuit and aboriginal population. Today is International Inuit Day.

How can we support indigenous communities? How does the new paragraph enhance the agreement?

[Mary Ng, Liberal, Markham—Thornhill, ON]

Reconciliation with indigenous peoples has been a priority and continues to be for this government, and that includes economic reconciliation. I have met, as we all have, many indigenous, Inuit and Métis entrepreneurs and businesses.

Working to support businesses to start and to grow in Canada is terrific, but to get access and to grow into international markets is another thing. I think that to have a specific chapter dedicated to this for the first time in a trade agreement is a real testament to the ambitions not only of us here in Canada but also of our Ukrainian counterparts. That's a really strong recognition.

I've often talked in other fora where.... You know, in Canada, indigenous people were the first traders of this country, the very first. To work alongside indigenous entrepreneurs and businesses who can see an opportunity in this rebuild effort to export a service or to provide, trade and do business with Ukraine at the appropriate time is what the long-term benefit of this agreement will be.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

Another paragraph is interesting to me. It is about promoting equal access for women and men to the opportunities created by this agreement and improving the conditions to promote women's full participation.

What does that mean, really? In what sense is the word “promoting” used? How will equality be attained?