Evidence of meeting #82 for International Trade in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was war.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
Thank you.
Do you feel this trade deal can play an important role in helping Ukraine rebuild its postwar economy?
12:25 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
On that point, I'd say maybe or maybe not.
Certainly the main point I wanted to make was that you don't need the ISDS to do that.
As it is now, ISDS will get in the way of a Ukraine-focused beneficial recovery for that country. It simply hamstrings the future government on how it handles incoming investment to all those areas. It prohibits performance requirements and conditions you might place on inward investment. It gives these companies the right to sue them for billions of dollars that they don't have because they've just gone through a war.
To me, it's a no-brainer. We have to take out the ISDS. Questions could be asked about the other aspects that you've raised on the treaty.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
That's great. Thank you. I have one last question for you.
Do you see any specific sector in Canada's economy that can significantly benefit from this CUFTA agreement?
12:25 p.m.
Senior Researcher, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
I'm not sure exactly. Probably a number of sectors could benefit.
It would be nice to see co-operation on renewable energy, for example, and laying out a more renewable energy grid in Ukraine when the time is right. That could be done through government co-operation with the private sector and that kind of thing.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
Thank you, Mr. Trew.
I'll direct my next question, through the chair, to Professor Charlebois online.
Do you feel this trade agreement will be beneficial to your sector in agri-food and agriculture? How do you see the benefit of a modernized CUFTA agreement?
November 21st, 2023 / 12:25 p.m.
Director, Agri-Food Analytics Lab and Professor, Dalhousie University, Agri-Food Analytics Lab
That's a good question.
When you look at Europe, essentially there's already a lot of work to be done. Ukraine could actually give us an excuse to expand our reach in that region of the world. My answer to you is absolutely, yes, for many sectors.
Most importantly, with the R and D that we have in Canada, we can help Ukraine build its agricultural capacity over time.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Wilson Miao Liberal Richmond Centre, BC
With the new chapters being proposed in this new CUFTA agreement—I know you mentioned this earlier—can you share your perspective on how this trade deal will also improve the bilateral agreement between Canada and Ukraine?
12:25 p.m.
Director, Agri-Food Analytics Lab and Professor, Dalhousie University, Agri-Food Analytics Lab
Through agri-food, we're looking at a food-insecure region. I mean, agriculture has been impacted by the war. Ukraine is not as influential as it used to be. I think we should aspire to make sure that Ukraine comes back to its old self, at the very least. I don't think it can achieve that without the help of Canada.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thanks very much.
I'm not going to need the full five minutes, Madam Chair.
I just wanted to talk to Mr. Charlebois. Part of the free trade agreement language in there talks about stopping ways of “carbon leakage”. That's the terminology they've used. How they try to define carbon leakage, effectively, is that you can't have a carbon tax that is so low that you attract investment into your country. That's how they've set it out in this trade agreement.
Now, Ukraine's carbon tax is very tiny. I think it's the lowest in the world, and it's applied just in certain sectors of their economy. It's not even across the entire economy.
It would seem to me that putting language like “carbon leakage” in addition to “carbon pricing” is trying to encourage or force Ukraine to increase their carbon tax so that there's no carbon leakage or investment attracted into Ukraine because of their low carbon price.
Would you agree with me, if my interpretation is correct and this was applied, that it would be harmful to Ukraine in their efforts to rebuild?
12:30 p.m.
Director, Agri-Food Analytics Lab and Professor, Dalhousie University, Agri-Food Analytics Lab
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I think we need to be extremely careful in how we see our values and how we impose our values onto a great partner like Ukraine. Ukraine will absolutely need more help from Canada than we will need from them, especially over the short term. Again, I see this as an imposition from Canada. That's my perspective.
The environment is a critical issue, of course, for everyone on earth, but at the same time, food security is also a very important issue. We just need to keep that in mind when helping Ukraine rebuild.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
I know about the food security issue—of course, that's your area of expertise—but Ukraine was also a very large exporter of steel. The steel-making process is, in fact, usually carbon-intensive, unless you go with electric arc, for example. However, most Ukrainian steel is not made with electric-arc technology, so it's carbon-intensive. Putting in something like preventing carbon leakage, again, means you're attracting investment because your carbon tax is so low.
If Ukraine were forced to increase its carbon tax as a result of this trade agreement, that would make its steel more expensive, which would put it at a disadvantage, would it not?
12:30 p.m.
Director, Agri-Food Analytics Lab and Professor, Dalhousie University, Agri-Food Analytics Lab
It probably would. Again, I haven't studied the issue in Ukraine, but it would probably make Ukraine a less attractive market to invest in.
We've been doing some work on the carbon tax in Canada over the last six months, and we're starting to see some trends with industrial prices as well. There's been more movement with industrial prices in Canada versus in the U.S., so you could argue the same with Canada with the carbon tax right now. It may actually make Canada a less attractive place to invest as well.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Kyle Seeback Conservative Dufferin—Caledon, ON
Thanks very much.
That's the end of my questions, Madam Chair.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much.
We'll go to Madame Fortier, and she will be our last for the moment.
I'm sorry. Is it not you?
It's Mr. Sidhu.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to give Mr. Vaillancourt a chance to share his views on this modernization of the trade agreement.
You said some things in your opening remarks, but as the course of the conversation has evolved, I wanted to hear your thoughts on what stands out to you and what's important for Ukraine and Canada.
12:30 p.m.
Member and Spokesperson, Quebec Network for Inclusive Globalization
Could you repeat the question? I'm not sure I understand.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON
The conversation has evolved, and I really wanted to hear your thoughts on what is best at this time within this modernization agreement for Ukraine and Canada. In your opening remarks, you spoke a bit about it, but if you want to expand on that, you can.
12:30 p.m.
Member and Spokesperson, Quebec Network for Inclusive Globalization
We have obviously requested that the investment chapter be removed. That was really our idea. Here we're talking a lot about environmental issues and the carbon tax.
What's interesting in this agreement, as opposed to others, is that the environment is really part of it. When you think of the economy, you also have to consider the environmental issue because any harm done to the environment has consequences for the economy, very serious ones in some instances. Global warming is costing us a lot of money and is very harmful.
The environment must remain an absolute concern. I'm pleased to see that this agreement represents a positive evolution on this issue. For example, it refers to meeting the objectives of the Paris Agreement, although I think it needs to go even further on that issue.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON
I think that chapter on the environment is important. Climate change is no doubt something that is a challenge for all of us. It's important on this side of the floor that we recognize that climate change is real and Canada needs to do its part. It's practical and it's important that we continue working with our partners around the world to help protect our environment. I appreciate your words on the environment.
Thank you, Madam Chair. That's all I have today.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro
Thank you very much.
I'm not seeing any other questioners of witnesses. We have an agreement that we will go into committee business, but before we go into committee business we have the motion by Mr. Seeback.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
