Evidence of meeting #85 for International Trade in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ports.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Supply Chain Office , Department of Transport
I'll turn to my colleague.
One thing I want to observe as well is that the strike was not a Port of Vancouver strike. In fact, it was the west coast, owing to the structure. I'll turn to my colleague on that.
There are slightly different structures in different ports in terms of who the employer is and how negotiations occur. I think a better comparison that I'm more familiar with would be the United States ports. I'm not in a position to speak to a European comparison today.
Sonya.
11:50 a.m.
Director General, Marine Policy, Department of Transport
In respect of the way labour relations work at the ports, the port authority—like the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority or the Prince Rupert Port Authority—is not actually the negotiating body with the ILWU. They aren't the employer in the situation. It is the B.C. Maritime Employers Association, which represents the private sector businesses that are tenants of the various ports. Those are further removed from that. The port authority acts as the landlord for those tenant agreements, so the relationship is a bit different.
In terms of comparability, as my colleague mentioned, the United States would probably be more comparable. We certainly have seen over the past number of years some labour disruptions in American ports. It's hard to do an exact international comparison because sometimes the context is very difficult.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Another issue I'd like to bring up is Bill C-58, which is before the House now. It's the anti-scab legislation that would forbid the use of replacement workers in federally regulated industries like ports.
We hear commentary on both sides about whether this would be good or bad. Obviously the NDP believes that it's an essential thing and that it would actually shorten labour disputes, because if you allow replacement workers, things drag on and get very nasty.
I'm wondering if you can comment on any examples out there. I don't know if other jurisdictions have this kind of legislation, but what do you think the effect would be on a labour dispute in a port with that legislation in place?
11:50 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Supply Chain Office , Department of Transport
In terms of that comparative analysis, that would be best directed towards colleagues from the labour program. I'm not familiar with that.
Just as a practical matter, if 7,200 longshoremen were on strike, there would be limited management capacity to replace them.
11:50 a.m.
NDP
Richard Cannings NDP South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC
Getting back to how often this happens, do you know when the last labour disruption in the Vancouver port was?
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Supply Chain Office , Department of Transport
I did know that. I don't remember it offhand.
Businesses begin to make adjustments when they anticipate that there could be uncertainty. They don't necessarily wait for the disruption, so there have been impacts as people seek to mitigate risks when they anticipate there is a vulnerability and an uncertainty as to the outcome. That's true, I would submit, of any bargaining situation.
The last actual strike, I think, was some time ago. I don't recall precisely.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for joining us here today.
I have two quick items I want to follow up on.
My colleague started by asking for an economic impact assessment document. I would like to get on record that you will be able to provide that document to the committee. Heads are nodding, so I'll take that as a yes.
Secondly, there was also discussion around Bill C-33 at the beginning of this committee. I want to follow up on some of the comments made.
Essentially, do the bulk exporters at the port support this active vessel management process being proposed by the Port of Vancouver?
11:55 a.m.
Director General, Marine Policy, Department of Transport
I would say there is a lot of discussion in respect of active vessel traffic management. Certainly, industry is participating in that engagement. It was part of a public engagement process, and I believe the Vancouver Fraser Port Authority is still engaging with the various entities, including shippers, including the—
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
Then it's not necessarily a “yes” that they support it.
11:55 a.m.
Director General, Marine Policy, Department of Transport
I would say they support certain aspects of it. They may have differences of opinion in terms of how certain aspects of vessel traffic management play out.
November 30th, 2023 / 11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
Okay. I'd like to know more about what those certain aspects are, but I have only two minutes left. Perhaps providing a bit more of that in written expanded answers would be helpful.
Moving on to the dollar amounts that were suggested, for shipments, up to about $13 billion was impacted, and then there was a net economic loss of about $1 billion, at the high end.
I'll go back to the comment, as Mr. Dick indicated, that businesses often make adjustments when they sense uncertainty. Looking back at the timeline, the collective agreement expired March 31, 2022. I would suggest that creates some uncertainty with businesses. I hope you would agree with that.
Does your economic assessment take into account the comment that Mr. Dick just made?
11:55 a.m.
Chief Economist and Director General, Transportation and Economic Analysis, Department of Transport
The short answer is at least partly. It's not just a pure data model-based assessment we are doing. We are talking, almost on a daily basis, with the sector to get an appreciation of what it is doing in preparation for a potential labour dispute.
We factor that into our analysis when we know they are starting to change—
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Chief Economist and Director General, Transportation and Economic Analysis, Department of Transport
The $13 billion is clearly capturing this element.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
Chief Economist and Director General, Transportation and Economic Analysis, Department of Transport
Yes.
11:55 a.m.
Chief Economist and Director General, Transportation and Economic Analysis, Department of Transport
No.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
You would agree that it had the potential to be a lot more impactful by the date it expired.
11:55 a.m.
Chief Economist and Director General, Transportation and Economic Analysis, Department of Transport
The potential is probably a bit more than that, but you have to be cognizant that it's tough for businesses to change their routes. They are shipped—
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
They could essentially change the route as of March 31 and say that they're not even going to bother getting into this because it creates some uncertainty. Do you agree?
11:55 a.m.
Chief Economist and Director General, Transportation and Economic Analysis, Department of Transport
Yes.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB
In my last 30 seconds, can you give us a sense of what might be some of the impacts that linger to this day?
Don't answer all at once, but everybody for sure is allowed.
11:55 a.m.
Assistant Deputy Minister, Supply Chain Office , Department of Transport
People would like more predictability, more stability and more certainty.
There is concern from businesses in Canada that this affects their reliability reputation abroad. There is concern from trading partners that are perhaps less familiar with the Canadian labour context.
