International Trade Committee on Dec. 5th, 2023

[Maninder Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton East, ON]

I was in Washington for APEP, where leaders from the western hemisphere convened to talk about supply chain resiliency and how we can work together to relieve some of these pressures on our supply chains. As we know, the pandemic had a global impact on many of our supply chains, so we are working with other countries. I think it's important to have those conversations, as you are having within your ecosystems, but again, it's important that we work collaboratively with all our partners.

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Trudel, please go ahead for six minutes.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My thanks to the witnesses for joining us for this important study today.

Mr. Ashton, during the strike at the port of Vancouver, many people were calling for special back-to-work legislation, but you maintained your power relationship, and it didn't happen.

What would have been the impact on workers if the government had agreed to these requests for special legislation?

[Robert Ashton]

Quite simply, our rights would have been taken away. We wouldn't be able to freely negotiate a collective agreement for the terms and conditions that are appropriate for our industry.

If that were to happen, you would see an absolute destruction of the relationship between the employers, the union and the workers, and that's something that can never happen. Collective bargaining is hard, 100%, but we have to be allowed to do it. We have to be able to make gains for our members. When our employers make profits, when our employers do well, we expect to do well as well.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Can you tell me a little more about the gains you've made as a result of those negotiations that took place during the strike?

[Robert Ashton]

We were able to negotiate a fair wage increase when we looked at the interest rates that were going up and the inflation rates that were happening in the province. These inflation increases were not happening because of workers but because of other factors.

One of the biggest things we did in bargaining was get protection for our trades workers, protection for the future of our work, because our employers were refusing to upgrade our tradespeople, to train them in new technologies, or even to train them in old technologies that had changed slightly. We were losing a lot of our jurisdiction on that, and unfortunately, there was a 13-day strike, but we were able to achieve that once the employers came to the table and actually had a conversation with us. We were able to gain language that makes our employers upgrade and train our tradespeople.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

The last strike at the port of Vancouver was in 1969. So we can say that it's quite rare to see work stoppages of this nature.

Are you confirming that?

[Robert Ashton]

That is correct. As I said, it's been generations, actually. In 2018 we were in the same position with the BCMEA, because they didn't want to bargain with us then. What we did in 2018 was to have an overtime ban at one terminal, and it was the BCMEA that chose to lock out the entire country, yet today you don't hear people in the employing class and the ruling class screaming bloody blue murder when they lock us out. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

We know that Canada has a sad record when it comes to protecting workers. Special legislation has often been used.

An anti‑scab bill was introduced a month ago.

What's your opinion on this bill? Do you think it's good? Could it be improved? Are there things that could be added to strengthen it?

[Robert Ashton]

Are you talking about the anti-scab legislation?

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Yes, I'm talking about the anti‑scab bill, which was introduced in the House of Commons about a month ago.

[Robert Ashton]

It's Bill C-58. Yes, definitely. The 18-month delay after it receives royal assent shouldn't be there. It should be enacted immediately, to protect workers' rights. The other part of it is an absolute ban on scabs in the workplace. When an employer uses a scab, it tilts the scales. It creates animosity in the workplace that really can never be repaired. If there's a strike or a lockout, we don't go to work. That workplace should be shut down completely, because that truly does force the two parties to sit down and act like adults and get a deal done for the betterment of the workplace and the workers.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

In concrete terms, what would be the impact of passing this bill on the longshore workers at the Port of Vancouver?

[Robert Ashton]

We would understand completely that we wouldn't have to worry about our employers bringing in some worker to do our job to try to break us, to try to break the union, to try to break the employees' backs, to break our members' backs. This legislation probably means more to Canadian workers than a lot of us actually truly understand, because it levels and equalizes the playing field, something that should have been done generations ago, but that finally, through the hard work of the NDP and the Liberals and the Bloc Québécois, is going to be successful.

[Denis Trudel, Bloc, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Ashton.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much, Mr. Trudel.

We go now to Mr. Cannings.

Mr. Cannings, go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today. I'm going to continue on with Mr. Ashton to talk about the bargaining situation that seemed to, as you intimated, take longer because the employers weren't at the table. Instead you had the BCMEA, which, it seems, had no real direct bargaining power from the employers. Everything that you suggested to them they had to take back, and sometimes it took a week or 10 days.

I am just wondering if you could expand on that and talk about how things worked before, because as we heard, before that the last strike in the port of Vancouver was in 1969. I, at least, was alive. I don't know how many other people here were alive in those days. I just give it to you, Mr. Ashton, to talk about the effect that has on bargaining, in terms of the efficiency at the very least.

[Robert Ashton]

Yes, you bet.

Pre-2010, we had a certain number of direct employers at the table, whether it was the board chair or a direct terminal operator. Somebody was at the table. If something came up that needed to be discussed about a terminal, that terminal representative would come.

Post 2010, we haven't seen that happen. In 2018, we were stuck on two issues that we had to get through. We requested that two separate employers show up to the bargaining table. We had to ask many times for these employers to show up to the table. The BCMEA refused to let them come. Once those two direct employers showed up to the table, we successfully fixed the issues that had to do with those employers, and we moved on to the next one. We were successful in getting a collective agreement.

In this round of bargaining, we identified key issues we saw at the bargaining table that had to do with direct employers. When we were talking about maintenance in our industry.... Every single terminal is different and has different maintenance needs. We wanted the direct employers there to speak about their maintenance needs. We can come out with a holistic plan to improve and correct the issues happening on the docks. The BCMEA absolutely and adamantly refused to allow those terminals to come to bargaining and have those direct conversations with the union. How do you discuss that with a primarily third party—which the BCMEA is, in this instance—with no terminal knowledge? How do you negotiate like that?

On my side, I have senior representatives from all of my locals who have industry knowledge and who have worked in the terminals. We can have experts there at a moment's notice. That's why it takes so long for the BCMEA to respond. When they gave us their global offers, we responded to the first one in about eight or 10 hours. We gave it back to them. It took them seven days to respond to us. The next time they responded to us, it was the same thing. We responded that day within 14 or 15 hours, but it took them 10 days to respond to us. That's 17 days. We had a 13-day strike.

Yes, I think we could have avoided the strike if they had been there to bargain.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you.

We heard testimony here that suggests there's been diversion to other ports over the long term, not just during the strike. I know your union represents workers at other ports. Certainly, down in Los Angeles, Long Beach....

I'm wondering how things are different there, or perhaps they are the same. What are the prospects like there for getting fair deals for workers? How does the system work there?

[Robert Ashton]

I can't speak a lot about what the international side does, because I'm not directly involved with that.

In rounds of bargaining in the longshore industry, cargo diverts. It does. The shipping companies have no ties to any port, unless they own the terminal. They can up and bugger off. If they can find a port that's open, they're going to go there.

We saw cargo, when the ILWU was in negotiations, shift to the east coast. When we were in bargaining, it shifted to the south. It happens. Eventually, once the collective bargaining is done and we have a collective agreement, it's the responsibility of the parties to sit down and bring that work back. It's not doom and gloom in the ports of British Columbia. We're actually one of the top-producing ports in the world, in my opinion. We don't shut down. We've only had one strike in a very long time. Most of our shutdowns lately have been due to weather.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 40 seconds.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay. I have a bit more time.

You talked briefly about how the container terminals aren't working at full capacity and said that we could fix that.

I'm wondering if you could expand on that comment.

[Robert Ashton]

Right now, the container terminals are slow in B.C., to put it politely. It doesn't have anything to do with our strike. I won't say what I was going to say, because the interpreters.... It has nothing to do with our strike—absolutely nothing. It's the world economy. Shipping is an ebb-and-flow type of situation. We've offered to go and meet our customers with our employers and have sit-downs with them and explain that bargaining is done. “We're open for business. Let's start moving the cargo again.” We got responses like, “Not right now”, “Maybe later” and “It's okay.”

If our employers aren't willing to actually go with us to meet with customers, that's a problem as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We're on to Mr. Martel, for five minutes, please.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses who are with us today.

When railway stations, airports and ports stop operating because of a strike, it hurts the economy terribly.

Mr. Minister, I found your comments interesting, particularly when you said that the government lacked leadership during the strike at the port of Vancouver. Special legislation was passed in Montreal, and people went back to work. It kept the economy going.

What do you think we could do to prevent these strikes from dragging on and blocking the economy for a month or two?