Evidence of meeting #94 for International Trade in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was negotiations.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Doug Forsyth  Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Reuben East  Deputy Director, Investment Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Dean Foster  Director, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Pierre Bouchard  Director, Bilateral and Regional Labour Affairs, Department of Employment and Social Development

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)) Liberal Judy Sgro

I call this meeting to order.

This is meeting number 94 of the Standing Committee on International Trade. Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Therefore, members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I need to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those online, please mute yourself when you are not speaking. For interpretation online, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

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If any technical issues arise, please inform us immediately. We may need to suspend to ensure that interpretation is properly restored before resuming proceedings.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, February 6, the committee is continuing its study of free trade negotiations between Canada and Ecuador.

We have with us today, from the Department of Employment and Social Development, Pierre Bouchard, director, bilateral and regional labour affairs.

From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we have His Excellency Stephen Potter, ambassador of Canada to Ecuador; Doug Forsyth, director general, market access; Dean Foster, director, trade policy and negotiations; and Reuben East, deputy director, investment trade policy.

Before I open up the floor for comments and remarks, the ambassador of Canada to Ecuador does not have a proper headset, so he will not be able to participate today.

After speaking with particularly Mr. Cannings, who would very much like to have your participation, Ambassador, we're wondering if the following would be possible. You could listen in on the discussion this afternoon. You will not be able to comment back, but if you would like us to make arrangements for you to appear on another occasion when you have the appropriate headset on, we can also make that arrangement.

What is the wish of the committee? Would we invite the ambassador to come back at another meeting when he has the appropriate headset on?

Mr. Cannings is saying yes.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Sure. We have one more meeting, do we not?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Yes, we do.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

We can attempt to do that.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Ambassador, please stay on the line if you'd like to hear the comments and discussion this afternoon. It means you would be extra prepared when you come back to the next committee meeting.

Great. Thank you very much.

Welcome to all. We will begin with your opening remarks.

Mr. Forsyth, it's nice to see you back at our committee. You have five minutes for your opening statement, please.

3:35 p.m.

Doug Forsyth Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Madam Chair. It's nice to be back and to see all the committee members as well.

I'm pleased to be here today to address this committee and welcome your study on the proposed Canada-Ecuador free trade agreement negotiations.

Your study is timely, as government trade experts responsible for the various areas of free trade agreements are currently engaged in policy development work to propose chapters for planned negotiations.

Our team is also completing work on high-level negotiating goals, which should be presented to Parliament by the end of the month, so that you can provide your comments before the negotiations begin.

Let me now give some context on the possible launch of these negotiations.

At $116 billion in U.S. dollars, Ecuador's GDP represents roughly 3% of South America's gross domestic product. It's the only country on the Pacific coast of South America that Canada does not presently have a free trade agreement with, given that one or more such agreements are in force with Chile, Peru, Colombia and Panama.

Ecuador's current government under President Daniel Noboa Azin is among the most favourable to trade liberalization in the region. It also supports inclusive trade provisions in areas such as trade and gender, trade and indigenous peoples, and labour and the environment. It is notable that Ecuador is like-minded with Canada on issues such as human rights, the war in Ukraine and the centrality of the international rules-based order. It sees FTA's contribution to expanded economic prosperity as a means to advance its domestic social and security policies.

As you may be aware, Canada and Ecuador's trade officials undertook exploratory discussions through much of 2023 prior to taking a mutual decision to proceed towards the launch of negotiations. The exploratory discussions revealed a broad alignment in terms of approach and a strong willingness on both sides to show flexibility and advance negotiations quickly. In addition, both sides intend to carry out the negotiations in a largely virtual format, with minimal need for physical travel so as to approach the negotiations in a efficient and time-efficient manner.

Canada's objective is to negotiate a high standard, ambitious trade agreement with Ecuador. We will seek an agreement that provides Canadian firms with preferential access to the Ecuadorean market, as well as increased transparency and certainty for Canadian service providers and investors.

We will seek an agreement that reflects Canada's latest approaches, including in areas such as digital trade, inclusive trade, responsible business conduct, environment and labour. We will seek an agreement that ensures that the benefits are widely shared, including with traditionally under-represented groups such as women, indigenous peoples and small and medium-sized enterprises.

We know there is support for this agreement already. During the consultation process, we received positive feedback from stakeholders, including the agricultural and mining sectors.

We also heard from a number of provinces and territories, all of which supported the initiative as a way to create greater economic opportunities for Canadians and forge closer trade relationships with Ecuador.

In addition, we have heard concerns from stakeholders about certain provisions, such as investment. We are still thinking about how best to respond to those comments through our ongoing policy development work on our various chapter models for the free-trade agreement and through initiatives outside of the agreement.

It is in that same spirit that we welcome and consider your recommendations once you have completed your study.

In terms of economic impact, I will begin by noting that bilateral merchandise trade between Canada and Ecuador has been growing by 11% a year on average since 2010, reaching $1.3 billion in 2022. Nearly 40% of Canada's exports to Ecuador and nearly 90% of Canada's current imports from Ecuador are already duty-free. Preliminary analysis by the chief economist's office here at Global Affairs Canada has estimated that an FTA between Canada and Ecuador would generate modest but positive economic benefits for both countries. Canadian export gains are predicted in a wide variety of areas such as wheat, pulses and manufactured goods as well as in services trade.

Overall, preliminary estimates suggest that under an ambitious trade agreement, Canada's GDP could increase by about $83 million U.S. by 2030, while Ecuador's GDP could increase by approximately $49.3 million U.S. over the same time frame.

A particular area of interest as we head into negotiations relates to investment. As of 2022, Canada had the largest stock of foreign direct investment in Ecuador of any country at $2.6 billion, led by investments in the mining sector. Enforcement of investment chapter obligations through investor-state dispute settlement, ISDS, is a key interest for Canadian industry stakeholders.

In 2017, under a previous government, Ecuador gave notice of its intentions to terminate its 1997 foreign investment protection agreement, FIPA, with Canada. Termination became effective in 2018, although existing investments continue to be protected until 2033. However, we note that a recent ruling by Ecuador's constitutional court has found the inclusion of an ISDS mechanism in Ecuador's FTA with Costa Rica unconstitutional. Deliberations in Ecuador are ongoing regarding whether there are options that would allow it to move forward under certain conditions and this process will remain ongoing early in the months of our FTA negotiations.

Officials will explore options in this regard with Ecuador once negotiations begin, and we intend to base our position on Canada's latest investment agreement model, which includes clarifying that the parties maintain their right to regulate and preserve required policy flexibility in areas such as the environment, health, safety, indigenous rights, gender equality and cultural diversity.

In conclusion, Global Affairs Canada and the other departments working on our trade policy believe that, overall, a free trade agreement between Canada and Ecuador would be economically beneficial and would provide a means to support a government in the region that shares the same ideas and values.

I welcome comments and questions from the committee today, and look forward to reviewing the results of your work once your study has been completed.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Mr. Baldinelli, you have six minutes, please.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.

We had a previous hearing just the other day, and one of the witnesses from Cereals Canada mentioned that they sense the new Canada-Ecuador free trade agreement will be focused on trying to reinforce the existing market share Canada has in Ecuador, rather than focusing on growth.

I was wondering if you could comment on that.

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

I think the opportunities that exist under the FTA negotiations with Ecuador through our economic model show that there are opportunities within the agricultural space, for sure. We have noted that wheat is a key export interest of ours and a key area where I think we'll be able to benefit, and I would add pulses to that, as well. I think that there is an excellent opportunity to grow our exports in that marketplace.

In addition, Ecuador has free trade agreements with a couple of our competitors, including the European Union and China, and for any of the tariff advantages that they have in that marketplace I think we will be able to negotiate something similar so that we will be on equal footing with our competitors.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

In December 2023, the minister tabled a notice of intent to negotiate. Following that, there were consultations that flowed from that seeking input from stakeholder communities, provinces and so on.

Could you tell us or can you table with us how many provinces and territories, non-governmental organizations and individuals took part?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

As you note, we did send out a broad-based consultation request through the Canada Gazette for input on the FTA. I think most provinces responded with their interest, either written or verbally. We have a consultation mechanism through what we call the Canada C-Trade group, where we regularly assess FTAs and where a number of provinces also indicated their interest. Key exporting associations, mostly in agriculture but in mining as well, also indicated their interest. We did receive a number of letters and emails from NGOs as well.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Are those documents public? Can they be shared with the committee for its own review as we're undertaking this study?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

The inputs of others, you mean?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Yes, through your consultation.

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

They're not public, no. I think we do publish a summary from time to time.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Can we get a copy of that summary then?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

We haven't put it together as of yet. I don't know if we will have it done in time for your to complete your study.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Can you provide the committee with any documents related to your internal analysis on the expected benefits to Canadian trade for exporters with Ecuador under any future free trade agreement?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

I think we have a summary document that we could provide on that.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Thank you.

There are multiple other trade discussions taking place such as Canada and the Pacific Alliance, which Ecuador is also a candidate to join.

Can you comment on the Pacific Alliance negotiations as it's been some time since we've heard about this. GAC states that eight rounds of negotiations have taken place. Is that accurate and what is the status?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

That is my understanding. Eight rounds have taken place. There has not been one for, I would say, two years, probably, at least. It's not my file, so I'm not totally up to speed on it. However, I would say that there are a couple of outstanding issues that are beyond the control of Canada that are preventing the negotiations from moving along.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Tony Baldinelli Conservative Niagara Falls, ON

Starting the pre-negotiations with Ecuador, how does that impact our other trade negotiations? Can you list the complete free trade discussions, negotiations, that are currently happening that are also taking the time of GAC? What happens? Are there pauses on other trade negotiations that you're working on so that you can concentrate on one particular negotiation?

3:45 p.m.

Director General, Market Access, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Doug Forsyth

We have an excellent team of negotiators at Global Affairs Canada, if I do say so myself, and we are actively engaged on a number of files, as you note. Chief amongst them are active negotiations with ASEAN, the Asian economic association group, and with Indonesia. I have appeared here as the chief negotiator for Canada-U.K. Those negotiations are paused for the moment, at the request of the U.K. Those are the major ones.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you, Mr. Baldinelli.

Mr. Arya, you have six minutes, please.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Forsyth, welcome back to the committee.

In the previous meeting, one of our colleagues remarked, “The trade between Canada and Ecuador is so modest, so why do we need it?” That was the thought, but we need trade agreements with big markets, small markets, all markets. I think we have 15 agreements covering 51 countries. The more we have, the better. Every small thing helps.

Again, in my view, the process of negotiation many times brings benefits. Maybe the Canada-U.K. trade negotiations are being paused, and have been paused with Canada-India. Very specifically, two days back I learned that one of the demands from Canada to India was for tax exemptions for pension fund investments. I'm told that, of the $75 billion Canada has invested in India, the bulk of it is from our pension plans. I was told that the last budget in India—I believe this month—had given exemptions to pension funds from the income tax provisions, and the only pension funds investing in India are from Canada, so that is the added benefit. In my view, it is important that whatever market we have—Ecuador, or any small or big market—we should continue to go on.

I have a couple of questions. I'll combine them, and then you can address them.

One is that, in the last meeting again, some people came, saying, “We shouldn't have ISDS.” My view on ISDS provisions is that we should look out for the interests of Canada, our economy, corporations and businesses. Can you elaborate on the importance of ISDS? It can vary from market to market. It may not be relevant to every single market we negotiate with, but why is that important in general?

The other one is that you mentioned the expected benefits will be moderate. Even though the benefits are moderate, how important is it in the bigger picture of Canada, having free trade agreements with different countries in different parts of the world?