International Trade Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Okay. You have $182 million sitting here that you have spent already, and now there's up to $120 million for the next six years and potentially more after that. I'm just trying to simplify it here for Canadians watching. It seems like there's more than just $182 million.

[Louise Upton]

No. The $182 million is to date. The billing that we've not fully implemented, what we call “the operate solution”, does not start until we actually get into the “go live”—once CARM is online.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Maybe I'll ask it in a different way: How much have you been paid? How much has Deloitte—

[Louise Upton]

The $182 million.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Okay. Then the $120 million for six years is in addition to that in terms of maintenance after the fact? This is part of the existing contract.

[Louise Upton]

It's $20 million a year, with.... The contract is quite complicated.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

You're telling me.

[Louise Upton]

It's a very long and big contract.

There's also a sort of a declining cost. When I said $20 million a year, the $20 million a year is in and about: There's an assumption in each year post the first year that we're finding efficiencies and that there's a declining rate there as well.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

What is the maximum spend, then? How about if I ask it like that? What's the maximum amount that Deloitte can bill the government for now, and then six years later? It's $120 million—I'll answer that question for you—but up to now, how much can you bill the government for?

[Louise Upton]

Up to $182 million: That is what we've been paid to date.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Okay.

Let's ask it a different way. On subcontractors, how many have you subcontracted to?

[Louise Upton]

The vast majority of the work that Deloitte has delivered has been delivered by Deloitte employees. In my 30 years of doing this type of work with large transformations, there is always a version of subcontractors used for these projects.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Right. How many would there be on this project?

[Louise Upton]

I would approximate that it's maybe 20%.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

It's 20%. That sounds like a lot to me.

Of that 20%, can we obtain a list of those subcontractors, please? You're welcome to table that with the committee, unless you have it off the top of your head.

[Louise Upton]

I don't have it off the top of my head, but yes—

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

As a ballpark figure, what's the number on that? You say 20%. That could mean a lot. I'm thinking it's a lot, but how many would you project it to be?

[Louise Upton]

I wouldn't hazard a guess, because there are some that have not—

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Would they come out of the $182 million?

[Louise Upton]

Pardon me?

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

They would come out of the 182 million.

[Louise Upton]

Yes, they would be a part of the total cost that has been paid to date.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

This is my last question.

Are these the employees who were listed on the government website? Mr. Gallivan said it was unusual for him to see that.

In your 30 years, is it unusual for you to see Deloitte and subcontractors listed on the Government of Canada website as employees?

[Louise Upton]

I apologize. I'm not quite sure what you're referring to in that particular case.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Sidhu, please, for six minutes.