International Trade Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

You're saying you don't know whether the agency that gave you this contract is satisfied with what you are proposing.

[Louise Upton]

If you look at all of the design documents, I think the majority of them are signed off. As the designs moved forward, they would have had to be signed off to actually move to the development piece. Then testing gets signed off, and that continues through that process.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

If you were asked to produce the traceability matrix, it would show that the needs have been met and that no major flaws will prevent you from meeting the needs. Is that correct?

[Louise Upton]

As I said, the requirements traceability matrix would show all of the requirements and how they've been met throughout the program.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

You have 60 seconds.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I would like to use the time I have left to propose another motion to the committee. It will be handed out to you, and I will now read it. That, given that the Canada Border Services Agency is currently working to implement an official computerized registration system for the application of international trade policies relating to commercial duties and taxes for importers and supply chain partners specifically named “CBSA Assessment and Revenue Management” (CARM) and that this new system will come into effect for all on May 13, 2024; Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the Committee A. requests the Canada Border Services Agency to produce, in both official languages, unredacted copies of the contingency and disaster recovery plans, and B. once the documents in A have been received by the members of the Committee that, if it is not possible to send an unredacted copy to the Committee for a valid reason, that an unredacted copy be forwarded directly to the Parliamentary Law Clerk who will then give his opinion on the need for redaction to the Committee, and this, provided that the documents are filed with the Clerk of the Committee no later than 15 days following the adoption of this motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Thank you, Mr. Savard-Tremblay.

You have moved the actual motion as well introducing it. Do you want us to deal with that motion now or at another time?

All right. Mr. Savard-Tremblay has introduced the motion.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I would like us to debate it.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I would like to ask Mr. Savard-Tremblay.... I don't know if this debate is going to take up the rest of the meeting, and I think there are still a lot of questions to ask. Would it be possible that we hold it down until 5:15 and then debate it, so that we can continue our questions?

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

That's a great idea.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I'm fine with that, as long as we debate it at this meeting, which is our last one before the two-week break.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Yes. That's good. It's a great idea. Thank you.

Mr. Cannings, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Thank you. I'm going to turn to Ms. Campbell.

In your opening remarks, you made a statement. I tried to write it down. I think you suggested that the CBSA had not followed “a known IT project” or procedure or something.

[Kim Campbell]

Yes.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Could you elaborate on that?

[Kim Campbell]

Sure.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

I didn't hear any details.

[Kim Campbell]

Yes. My colleagues here have been participating with me on projects for many decades. We are used to a kind of methodology. I've alluded to it here. We do a design phase. We sign off. We have technical conversations together. I think about some of the projects where we spent many days together. Actually, in the early days, before the system was locked in, we did do a lot of that work technology-wise.

All those pieces—the comms plans, the transition plans and all those things we keep talking about—normally are laid out in a project plan. We then follow it through together on timelines to meet the outcomes.

We have not experienced that. Even during delays, as this project was supposed to go in—R2—in 2021, we've never been given any explanations as to why. Normally at that point you would start to see changed project plans, where the timelines and the tasks switch out, but we've never seen anything like that. That's what I was referring to.

[Richard Cannings, NDP, South Okanagan—West Kootenay, BC]

Okay. Thank you.

Ms. Jalbert and Ms. Bilodeau, you both mentioned a suggestion to limit the scope of the solution.

I'm wondering if you could tell us what you would like to limit it to.

[Tammy Bilodeau]

As we said, we support the transition to a modernized platform for the collection of duty and taxes. The trouble we have with this overall program is the registration process required of importers on the front end. There's a back-end accounting process. It makes sense that we need to modernize. Forcing importers to sign on to this portal and registration and to post their own financial security—which they don't have to do today—is what we're asking to make optional.

Hopefully, that answers your question.

[Renate Jalbert]

I agree. It is about separating the two functions. There are policy pieces that relate to the CARM client portal registration, mandating that every importer must follow these steps. It's a bond. It's delegating your broker online. It's providing a lot of information in the CARM client portal and also managing that business.

The other part, the back-end piece, is all the technology for filing the entry and doing duty and tax calculations, which was long overdue for modernization. There is no issue with supporting that. It's about separating the two. The design was not well done in terms of mandated registration—every single importer in the entire world going through that process and posting security in order to have a shipment released, goods accounted for and goods delivered.

It's about separating this. Go forward with the accounting pieces and separate the registration pieces.

[The Chair, Liberal, Judy Sgro]

Mr. Seeback, go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'll go back to these contracts, because I'm not sure we are where we need to be.

Through an ATIP, I have CARM project expenses for the CBSA in 2013-14 of $20 million. You're talking about a contract in 2018. I don't need the answer today, but what I want produced now is any contract you've had with the CBSA with respect to CARM, from inception. I don't know if that's 2010 or 2011. I don't know if it's this cost of $20 million in 2013-14. I want whatever you have in CARM contracts from inception. Then I want any subsequent contracts. Then I want every single invoice related to those contracts from whenever it started—2010, 2012 or 2014—so we're up to date.

Is that acceptable? Can you please produce those for the committee?

Can I get a yes on the record?

[Louise Upton]

I will need to follow up with our team, then get back to the committee.

[Kyle Seeback, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Get back on whether you have it, or whether you're going to do it?