Evidence of meeting #21 for International Trade in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was indonesia.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Maninder Sidhu  Minister of International Trade
Neufeld  Senior Counsel, Investment and Services Law, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair (Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber River—Black Creek, Lib.)) Liberal Judy Sgro

I call the meeting to order.

This is meeting number 21 of the Standing Committee on International Trade. Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, February 2, 2026, the committee is commencing its study on Bill C-18, an act to implement the comprehensive economic partnership agreement between Canada and Indonesia.

Appearing today, we have the Honourable Maninder Sidhu, our minister. I'm glad to see you back again, even if we're doing Bill C-18 for the first hour and are being very ambitious and doing Bill C-13 for the second hour—not to mix anyone up. You've been here for both, so we appreciate the fact that you're here.

Also with us today, from the Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food, are Matthew Smith, chief agriculture negotiator, and Axel Ndayisaba, director of the trade negotiations division. From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we have Rob Stewart, deputy minister, and Aaron Fowler, associate assistant deputy minister for international trade.

You're all very familiar with our committee, and we welcome seeing all of your familiar faces back again.

I will now open the floor to the minister for his time to speak to the committee on this trade bill.

11 a.m.

Brampton East Ontario

Liberal

Maninder Sidhu LiberalMinister of International Trade

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

It's an honour to be here once again. It's another week, and here I am again. It's a very comfortable, familiar environment for me.

I do want to say, once again, thank you to all the members for the tremendous work you're doing. I miss my time here at this committee, because I know that the work you do reflects on and is very important to workers on the ground across Canada.

Last week, I was here to talk about the U.K.'s assention to the CPTPP, and here we are, today, to talk about Bill C-18, Canada's trade agreement with Indonesia.

At its core, trade policy is about opportunity. It's about who can reach new markets and who benefits when Canada succeeds. It is about connecting Canadian workers, businesses and communities to growth beyond our borders. It's also about strengthening the economic foundations that families across the country rely on every single day. That is the lens through which I approach this agreement, and this is why this work matters.

Indonesia is one of the most dynamic economies in the world today. It is the largest economy in Southeast Asia, a member of the G20, and home to nearly 280 million potential consumers. Indonesia sits at the meeting point of Southeast Asia and Oceania, and its scale is matched only by its cultural richness. Across its 17,000-plus islands, there are around 300 distinct ethnic groups altogether, speaking more than 700 languages. Indonesia has a young and growing population, a rising middle class and an economy that is diversifying at a rapid pace. Over the coming years, Indonesia is expected to become the world's largest economy. That growth is already reshaping global trade patterns and supply chains.

For Canada, this is a major opportunity and one we cannot afford to ignore. Indonesia's economy needs what Canada does best. From agriculture and agri-food to forestry, critical minerals, energy solutions, clean technology, advanced manufacturing and services, these are sectors in which Canadian businesses are competitive, innovative and globally trusted. As Indonesia invests in infrastructure, food security, sustainability and industrial development, Canadian companies are well positioned to partner in that growth, while creating jobs and prosperity here at home.

This agreement reflects a shared commitment to openness, co-operation and long-term economic partnership. It gives Canadian businesses the certainty they need to plan, invest and build lasting relationships in a fast-growing market that values reliability and, of course, quality. By deepening our ties with Indonesia now, we are creating pathways for Canadian exporters to grow alongside Indonesia's economy, translating demand abroad into investments, innovation and jobs here at home.

However, opportunity alone is not enough: Access matters. With this agreement, we reduce barriers, establish clear rules and give Canadian businesses the confidence they need to compete and win globally. When doors open in markets like Indonesia, jobs are created and protected in Canada. That connection is real and direct. When a Canadian farmer exports canola, wheat or pulses to Indonesia, it supports jobs not only on the farm but at the grain elevator, the rail yard, the port and the processing facility. When Indonesia buys Canadian lumber, pulp or paper, it sustains employment in logging communities, keeps sawmills humming, supports trucking and rail operations, and drives activity at ports and packaging plants across the country. For millions of Canadians whose livelihoods depend on exports, market access can mean the difference between growth and stagnation, between expansion and uncertainty, and those impacts are felt in communities across our country.

This agreement is also about Canada's long-term future in the Indo-Pacific, one of the fastest-growing regions of the world. Strengthening our partnerships with Indonesia helps build resilient supply chains, deepens relationships with trusted partners and ensures that Canadian workers and businesses are connected to opportunities on every continent.

Simply, we pursue trade because it delivers for Canadians. We do this work for workers whose jobs depend on global markets. We do this work for families that rely on strong local economies. We do this work because the benefits of trade reach every corner of our country. With every opportunity we expand, every partnership we strengthen and every door we open for Canadian workers and businesses, we are building a stronger Canada.

I think it's very important, for today's conversation, that we focus on the workers on the ground who will be impacted by our FTAs with many countries around the world, but especially with Indonesia.

Thank you, Madam Chair. I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

I appreciate your leaving ample time for questions from the members.

We'll go to Mr. Chambers, please, for up to six minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, welcome back. It feels like you were here just a week ago. If you'd like to keep coming to committee and bringing trade agreements with you, we'd keep welcoming you here.

My understanding, at least from the numbers or the reports we have from our good analysts here, as well as your department, is that the GDP impact of this agreement will be 0.0012%. Do I have that about right?

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

When you look at the forecasting for many trade agreements in the past, the forecasting has never been spot-on. Things change, environments change and economies change.

When you look at forecasting in the past—we can get you some of the numbers from past forecasting—it was always underwhelming, but when you look at the actual impacts within six years of a trade agreement coming into force, trade typically doubles, and the GDP numbers go far beyond that.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Before the agreement was signed, basically 80% or 88% of Canadian goods could access that market duty-free already. Is that right?

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

When you look at what we got in terms of options and opportunities, this agreement will lower the preferential tariff access for many different categories. I think it's important to note that many stakeholders have come out in support of this agreement, because they know how much access it would provide them in terms of additional opportunities. As Indonesia grows, to get in at this time was very important.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

Sure. Look, I think you'll have no negative reactions from us in terms of whether or not we agree with the agreement. Any time we can expand trade is a good opportunity, but I think we have to be realistic about what outcomes we're going to get. Of course, industry has to do its part in building some of those relationships, and I hope the government will support it.

We may be focusing on a number of areas but still leaving a big hole with our largest trading partner. Do you have an update on when we might be able to get some meaningful progress on that relationship, recognizing that it's not solely your responsibility? I recognize that 0.0012% is better than zero, but we still have this quite challenging situation with our largest trading partner.

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

It's a very important question. I think you're right to ask that question in terms of what we are doing with our largest trading partner, the U.S. It will continue to be an important trading partner to Canada. As you said, Minister LeBlanc is currently focused on those conversations with the U.S. As you know, 85% of our goods still go in duty-free. We don't want to sign a bad deal. We want to make sure that we get the best for Canadians, and we'll continue having those conversations.

My focus as the international trade minister is to diversify into new markets around the world. In the past, Liberal and Conservative governments have signed smaller agreements, if you look at what's been done in the Americas with the countries there. They were much smaller economies, but I would say that for any trade agreement we can sign that can give more access for the goods that Canadian workers produce, we should go for it.

That's my focus. We promised Canadians. Across this table, in all our platforms, for the three parties here in this room, we all had trade diversification in our platforms. At this time of great economic insecurity with our largest trading partner, it's important that we continue focusing on opening doors, and that's what we'll continue to do.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

You'll have support from us to help you get there and deliver results. Prime Minister Harper entered office with about six trade agreements and left with about 51 completed, under way or close to completion.

On expanding trade, it was reported yesterday that the Taiwanese are still waiting for the trade framework agreement. I'm wondering if you can help me understand where that is. Is there anything? Is it sitting on your desk or is it sitting on the desk of someone else at the moment?

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

Coming back to your question on Taiwan, I think it's important to note that Taiwan is an important economic partner for Canada. I think our two-way trade is at roughly $5 billion, if not more.

They'll continue to be an important partner for Canada within our long-standing one China policy, and I think that's very important to mention here when you talk about Taiwan. We'll continue standing up for Canadian interests, and we'll do what's best for Canadians. At the end of the day, in terms of that arrangement with Taiwan, we're analyzing and we're figuring out next steps.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

My understanding is that the agreement was basically finished, the pages initialized, and we're just waiting for, I guess, the Prime Minister to say that it's okay for it to move forward. Is that a correct assessment?

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

We're here to talk about Indonesia, but of course Taiwan is an important economic partner to Canada. There are many sectors that we collaborate on—aerospace, information technology, communications, agri-food, seafood and so much more. We're going to continue having those conversations.

I would like to note here that within the one China policy, we'll continue engaging with all of our economic partners and we'll do what's best for Canadians.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Adam Chambers Conservative Simcoe North, ON

I would just say that you would have support around this table. If that agreement needs to come to this committee, we would be more than willing to clear the decks to make sure we can finalize that agreement with you.

I'd also ask you to speak to the Minister of Transport, because one of the Taiwanese airlines is trying to increase the number of flights it has here—or actually get routes. As you know, the more flights you have to a country, the better the opportunities for our businesses to trade. If I could leave that with you as a recommendation from this committee, or at least from me, we would be willing to support you bringing the Taiwanese framework agreement here.

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

I'm happy to take that back.

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Madame Lapointe, go ahead, please, for six minutes.

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses for joining us again today to discuss Bill C‑18, which deals specifically with the free trade agreement between Canada and Indonesia.

Minister, can you explain how the agreement between Canada and Indonesia, as set out in Bill C‑18, will create concrete opportunities for Quebec businesses, particularly in my riding, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, in the Lower Laurentians, where the aerospace industry and many other industries are located. We are also active in the manufacturing and technology sectors, and we do a lot of agri-food processing.

How will this agreement support local employment in my riding, as well as in the Greater Montreal Area?

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

Through you, Madam Chair, I'd like to thank the member for her important work on this committee. We have had great conversations on aerospace, farmers and the meat industry, and how this agreement would impact them and the opportunities that it would create.

When you look at the numbers, you see that our agri-food exports around the world amount to roughly over $100 billion, and that includes seafood and fish sectors as well. Indonesia imported about $39 billion in agri-food and seafood in 2024 alone. Canada's sixth-largest agri-food market is $1.2 billion, in the ASEAN. In terms of the food sector, CEPA phases out tariffs on products such as beef and pork, pulses, potatoes, fruits and, of course, pet food.

You spoke about the beef industry, and I think it's important that we hear from them directly in terms of what they've said about this agreement. Maybe I can read into the record some quotes from them, from the Canadian Meat Council and the Canadian Pork Council. For those watching, for context, these councils represent roughly over 7,000 farms and meat-processing establishments. They have huge numbers and they speak for a lot of farmers here in Canada. They support over 190,000 jobs. As I said in my opening remarks, at the heart of this, it all comes back to workers on the ground across Canada, in communities in Quebec and all across Canada.

Maybe I can read into the record some of the quotes that we've heard from the Canadian Meat Council and the Canadian Pork Council.

The first quote is this:

This landmark agreement represents a significant opportunity for Canada's meat industry to expand its presence in one of the largest and fastest-growing markets in the Indo-Pacific region.

It continues:

The CMC looks forward to the swift implementation of the CEPA and remains committed to supporting the government of Canada in ensuring this agreement delivers tangible benefits for businesses and communities. We look forward to working alongside like-minded partners to drive the success of this ambitious partnership.

As you can see, in terms of access, there's a lot of excitement among the thousands of farmers this council represents. I think the more doors we open, the more it will reflect the farmers on the ground. It will reflect the opportunities, not only in the months ahead but in the years ahead, for what more they can do.

You spoke a little bit about aerospace, and I think it's important that I touch on that, because it's a huge industry in Quebec, as we know, with the operations of Bombardier and CAE. This presents a lot of opportunities for them. Again, coming back to jobs, the aerospace industry represents over 225,000 workers, which is a big number, and that impacts communities on the ground. The CEPA guarantees tariff-free treatment for nearly all aerospace products entering Indonesia. They imported about a billion dollars' worth of these products not too long ago, in 2024, and of course, as they expand their middle class, they'll be adding more flights and airlines. If you have more spending money, you like to travel, so hopefully that will translate into more planes being bought from Canada, meaning more work for workers in Quebec and across Canada.

This agreement will unlock tremendous opportunities, and it's not just about one part of our country. The GDP from the aerospace industry is about $29 billion, and the majority of that is export-driven. The more FTAs we sign, the more support the aerospace industry gets. I think CEPA positions Canadian manufacturers well to get into this important market.

Let's dive a little bit deeper into the numbers. I talked a little bit about CAE, and I've seen their operations around the world. It's a tremendous success story for Canada. We have a huge amount of respect for the company and what they're doing. They have offices in Montreal, Toronto, Mississauga and Vancouver, and they support close to 13,000 employees, including in Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan, and in Alberta, so it's a fabulous story to tell.

As middle classes expand and more planes are needed, guess what: You need people to train those pilots, and that's what CAE specializes in, in terms of simulation. They're providing simulation services around the world. Indonesia is a prime market that we encourage them to continue to explore, because at the end of the day, coming back to the same statement I said at the beginning, it's about the workers on the ground.

Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you very much.

You were right to mention CAE, which offers training. As I told you the other day, my son trains commercial pilots. It’s quite complicated to obtain a private pilot’s licence, but we’re very proud of this company.

As you said earlier, Indonesia is one of the places where the population will grow the fastest. It will therefore need a lot of services, including air travel.

I think my time is up.

Thank you very much.

The Chair Liberal Judy Sgro

Thank you very much.

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, you have six minutes, please.

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us again at the committee. Welcome.

I would also like to thank your colleagues for being here.

Before getting to the heart of the matter, namely Indonesia, I would like to take advantage of this opportunity. My Conservative colleagues mentioned Taiwan, and you said you would be willing to come back. I have an invitation to extend to you, which I will present in the form of a motion. I will just read it out, and then it will be sent to you, and we can deal with it the next time we discuss the committee’s work. Here it is:

That the Standing Committee on International Trade (a) write to remind the government that Canada’s signature of the cooperation agreement with Taiwan has been pending since April 2025, while emphasizing that Taiwan is a reliable and democratic partner that does not rely on forced labour; (b) request that the government specify the anticipated timelines for the ratification of this agreement; (c) invite the Minister of International Trade to appear before the committee to answer members' questions on this matter; (d) transmit this motion and the letter referred to in paragraph a to the Prime Minister’s Office and the Office of the Minister of International Trade; and that the committee report its efforts to the House.

You therefore have an exclusive invitation, before the committee sends it to you formally by email.

I will now return to my questions on Indonesia.

First of all, we know that there are several challenges concerning this country. It is a large market. So, in itself, it could be beneficial for our businesses. There is no problem on that front, but I still have a few small questions. Yes, we need to promote diversification, but not at any price. We know that there are violations related to steel dumping, for example.

Was this considered during discussions?

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

When you look at our steel industry in Canada, it's a very important industry, and you see the steps our government has taken to protect the industry, as the U.S. imposed section 232 tariffs on our industry. You see the movement of steel. We don't want to become a dumping ground, so we've taken extraordinary measures to protect our industry, because it's about national security. If you don't have a steel industry, you don't have national security. We need to protect the industry. Of course, we've taken steps to protect the industry against any dumping, but also to make sure that they're able to thrive and that the workers have the support on the ground.

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC

Is there anything about this in the agreement itself?

Maninder Sidhu Liberal Brampton East, ON

In terms of dumping, we can do dumping and negotiations. We can bring up that information at any time when we have consultations. We can bring it to the WTO as well when we have a trade agreement. There are many different mechanisms that you can have. I would say, talking about Indonesia, the steel measures that we've taken are for non-FTA partners. If you look at where steel is coming from right now, there are the Chinas and the U.A.E.s of the world, and South Korea. We need to make sure that we're there to protect our industry, and that's what the finance minister has stepped up and done.

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC

Now, with regard to forced labour and human rights in general, we know that Indonesia’s record is not good. This has been documented and proven. Is there anything in the agreement to counter this? I’m not just talking about chapters with principles.

Is there anything concrete to ensure that goods produced by forced labour are filtered out?