Evidence of meeting #27 for International Trade in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was market.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual
That is correct. For the population, it's massive.
We should also recognize that there are more representatives at the Chinese embassy in Ottawa than there are in the United States, a population that's 10 times our size.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
In this climate, Mark Carney has decided that it's time to do a security deal with Beijing, a regime that I think you would agree and perhaps could elaborate on....
In terms of law enforcement, how do you compartmentalize law enforcement when this regime routinely blends intelligence-gathering and political oppression with law enforcement activities?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual
The only way it could ever even be considered is by using the traditional mutual legal assistance treaty whereby it has to go through Justice. It's evaluated through rule of law. Other than that, to provide intelligence police to police would be fraught with danger, because you could be putting a bullet in the head of somebody in China.
I want to sum up by saying that prosperity cannot come at the expense of national security.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Absolutely.
What does it say about this agreement that the Minister of Public Safety has refused to release the terms of the agreement?
It's not only that: He has been unable to articulate any safeguards whatsoever in the agreement to protect Canadians from a regime that the Prime Minister recently acknowledged, and quite correctly so, as Canada's biggest security threat.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual
For me, it's a concern, because I've gone on record stating that I believe the PRC government is the largest transnational organized crime group that I've confronted in my lifetime. I believe it still is.
The fentanyl crisis we're dealing with today is a direct result of the PRC government. The state has helped send precursors over to this country, and we have to recognize that.
Until we have some of those conditions put into any agreement that we're going to do from an economic point of view, I think Canada is having the wool pulled over its eyes, and we're in big trouble.
Conservative
Michael Cooper Conservative St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB
Here we have Canada's biggest security threat. We have the Prime Minister entering into an agreement, with Canada's biggest security threat, on matters of security and law enforcement. It would seem to me that, if there were any matters Canada should be reticent about getting involved and co-operating with Beijing on, they would be security and law enforcement. Would you agree with that?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual
I would 100% agree, and I'd add one point. We have to recognize that the state of the RCMP is such that, in their federal enforcement, they are extremely weak. I've gone on the record many times: They are not fit for the purpose under the present regime.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Adam Chambers
Thank you very much.
We'll move to Mr. Lavoie, but before we do that, I remind those joining us online that there is an interpretation button, at the bottom of your screen, that you may wish to ensure is on English as we move to the next two rounds.
Monsieur Lavoie, go ahead.
Liberal
Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Let's talk a bit about international trade, since that's what we're here for.
I also want to talk a little about market diversification. We're talking about China and Qatar, but there are several other agreements under consideration, including bills C‑13 and C‑18.
My first question is for Mr. Irvine on the subject of lobster.
Canada is the world's largest producer of lobster, so congratulations. We're very proud of Canadian lobster, particularly Halifax lobster.
I'd like to hear you on market diversification. We know global trade and supply chains are changing. We're going through an incredibly unpredictable period. You've undoubtedly felt the impact of Chinese tariffs.
I have two questions for you.
First, what percentage of your sales goes to China and what percentage goes to Qatar, which is surely lower?
Second, should we diversify our markets more, or should we simply increase our sales to China and Qatar?
Executive Director, Lobster Council of Canada
We export about 20% of our lobster, by value, to China, and a tiny percentage to Qatar, so it's very small. We see diversifying from China and the U.S. as a major priority. The U.S. is our biggest market by far. We probably ship 75% of our lobster products to America and about 20% to China. The breakdown is different between frozen and processed: It's much bigger to the U.S. in processed and higher in live.
We are engaged—we just came back from a trade mission to Europe—to try to diversify, to sell more lobster and seafood products to northern Europe. We regularly go to shows in Singapore to try to sell more products to Southeast Asia. We've been doing a lot more work in the Middle East, as I think I said before. We've been sponsoring some events in in the U.A.E. in recent months, so it's a high priority to diversify from the U.S. and China for both live and processed lobster.
Liberal
Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC
I want to make sure I understand. You just said we need to move away from the Chinese market. Do you want to increase or decrease the percentage of your sales to China, which now sits at 20%?
Executive Director, Lobster Council of Canada
I think that one of the previous speakers in the panel before us said that every market is important. The Chinese market has grown—for the live lobster industry, especially—to be, really, a vital market. At certain times of the year, we need markets like this to take volumes because we cannot move it or hold it in other places. It's a little complicated when you get into the minutiae of how lobster comes ashore. We have massive catches in the spring, many of which come from Quebec, and massive catches in the late fall, so we have to place the lobster in certain markets. We need the Chinese live market to deal with this heavy volume. It's a bit complicated, but our goal is to have markets all around the world that will pay top dollar for Canadian lobster.
Liberal
Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC
Okay.
What I understand is you're very open to diversification and any other agreements on the table.
My next question is for Mr. Clement. I'll be quick.
I listened closely to your opening remarks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said we shouldn't be doing any business with China. Is that correct?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual
No, I don't believe that was the intent of what I was saying. I was saying that with anything we're going to do, we should absolutely make sure that we've got safeguards in place and that we go into it with our eyes wide open. This is absolutely crucial if we're going to do business with China, recognizing that they are going to steal our intellectual property and that we've got the united front here. If we don't recognize that, then I think we're the ones who are going to be in trouble at the end of the day. You just have to look at the Caribbean region and how they've been impacted because of the debt they now have with China.
Liberal
Steeve Lavoie Liberal Beauport—Limoilou, QC
What safeguards would you put in place? People I talk to often bring up certain issues and I ask them what the solution might be. What safeguards would you recommend?
Please be as specific as you can.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual
If we do go in and sit down, if there is an agreement, I think we have to recognize some of the atrocities that go on in China with the Uyghurs and understand that's what we're dealing with for forced labour. We have to understand that. In any trade deal we're going to do, we have to put some conditions in it.
This is a responsibility of a democratic country like Canada, with the beliefs we hold. If we put that in place with some of those safeguards, I do not believe that President Xi would go along with it, to be quite honest with you. However, I don't think this should stop us from attempting to put some safeguards in place.
Conservative
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to thank the witnesses for their presentations.
Mr. Clement, I'd like to continue along the same lines. There's a lot of talk about China when it comes to imports. Do you think the current Canadian legislation is strong enough when it comes to the importation of goods produced through forced labour?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual
Absolutely not, unfortunately. My understanding is that in the ports of Vancouver, we've seen a 60% increase, as I read in the paper the other day. We inspect 2%.
I'll give a good example because it's concrete. As some of you know, we worked on a story involving the monasteries down in Prince Edward Island. Those monasteries were built, and all the lights and electronics—everything—came in by cargo to Prince Edward Island. Nothing that was used was manufactured in Canada. None of it was CSA-approved. All the equipment came in in containers from China. They were asked, what's the value? How much of that had listening devices and everything?
In terms of the cranes at ports, the United States refused to use the cranes from China because of the listening devices that were put in them. We use them widely in Canada.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
You said 2% of imports in the ports of Vancouver are inspected. That's a number I didn't have, but it's interesting. I think it further supports the notion that changes need to be made to the act.
That said, historical figures show that only a few shipments have been seized. Senior officials who testified before the committee recently gave us an update on that. Moreover, only a tiny portion of those shipments were held, because a lot of goods were returned when the importer filed a complaint and asked to have them back.
The American model works extremely well, especially regarding what comes from the Uyghur region. In Canada, as I said earlier, merchandise comes from all regions of the globe. The U.S. has seized billions of U.S. dollars’ worth of goods from the Uyghur region alone.
I tabled Bill C‑251, which copies the American model. Establishing a list of entities would change who has the burden of proof.
Should we move in that direction with respect to Canadian legislation?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual
With anything to do with the ports, legislation that helps beef up what we're doing is absolutely essential. When I started in 1973, we did port policing in Vancouver. We have watched it erode to the point of its being totally controlled. Montreal is controlled primarily by the bikers. We're controlling the ports in Vancouver. There's a lot of Chinese oversight in there, and there is no oversight by law enforcement. Our borders are wide open. We wonder why we've got a fentanyl crisis. It's quite evident that we've opened the door and become a safe haven for transnational organized crime.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
Mr. Fitton‑Brown, do you have anything to add, given your foundation monitors that as well? I'm talking about forced labour. Is the number of import inspections sufficient or not? Do we need to strengthen the act?
Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies
On the last point, the other contributor was speaking about China specifically. I would say only that with my limited experience of working in enforcement or in countering serious and organized crime, he made some really excellent points about the fact that when you're dealing with the Chinese, it's not a meeting of two even partners. If you're looking to hold on to your own legal compliance and avoid being drawn into law enforcement operations that you may subsequently regret because they may appear to have led to, for example, the targeting of somebody who was not actually a criminal or some kind of excessive action against them, that is a definite risk in any kind of law enforcement collaboration with the Chinese. It's a risk you have to look at through very careful legal compliance lenses.
When you talk about forced labour—that's in both the Chinese and Qatari contexts—it's just something that one has to be aware of when you're dealing both commercially and officially with countries that do not have the same legal safeguards that we do in the democratic, western world and that you obviously have in Canada. You need to look at every single agreement that you enter into, on strict legal compliance grounds.
Bloc
Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC
When countries don't have the same environmental and human rights standards we do, I think we can talk about unfair competition. Am I right?
My question is for either Mr. Clement or Mr. Fitton‑Brown, whoever wants to answer.