Evidence of meeting #27 for International Trade in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was market.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

McCuaig-Johnston  Senior Fellow, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Fulton  President, Canadian Cattle Association
Prybylski  Director, Canadian Federation of Agriculture
Brocklebank  Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Cattle Association
W.G. Clement  President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual
Irvine  Executive Director, Lobster Council of Canada
Fitton-Brown  Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

12:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual

Garry W.G. Clement

If I may, I would describe it like this: We're not fighting on the same level. This is why I say that if we go into it with our eyes wide open, recognizing that we're going in disadvantaged, and then we put safeguards in.... China is a huge market. I accept that. I accept that we have to trade with nations, including China, but let's go in with our eyes wide open and let's not cut secret deals.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Adam Chambers

Thank you very much.

In the next round we have Mr. McKenzie.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

David McKenzie Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Mr. Clement, I want to pick up right there.

It strikes me that there is an important difference between a transactional trading relationship and one with additional strategic layers to it.

Our Prime Minister has indicated that as a country we're going to pursue both. It seems to me that we might be able to have a transactional relationship trading-wise with China, but there is great danger in the strategic side.

Would you make that differentiation as well?

12:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual

Garry W.G. Clement

It's a valid point as you describe it. I think that one can definitely be done and controlled. The other, believe me, we will not control.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

David McKenzie Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Sir, I am relatively new as a member of Parliament. I must admit to you some surprise on my part on the alarm bell sounded by you and by others respecting Chinese interference in domestic political operations in Canada and in political life, yet I see very few signs that our government is responding seriously to this.

Is that your understanding of whatever steps are being taken to respond to these threats to our country?

12:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual

Garry W.G. Clement

The best way I can answer, sir, is that it is the reason I'm still here today, some 50 years later.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

David McKenzie Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

You're trying to work yourself out of a job, but unfortunately, the Government of Canada is not helping. Is that what you're saying?

12:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual

Garry W.G. Clement

I think my lifeline might put an end to it, but I'm determined to see this through because I believe it's the right thing for our children and their children. We do not have it right. That's my concern.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

David McKenzie Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Sir, in order to have an effective transactional trading relationship with China, what is it we need to do? Is it simply a question of what I think I'm hearing, which is, number one, to respect what we already know?

Do we need to increase our vigilance in government? Do we need to increase our law enforcement? Do we need to make it part of our relationship with China that their efforts to impact or disturb our domestic political life are unacceptable?

12:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual

Garry W.G. Clement

My view is that if you had a magic wand and whatever we say, you're going to do, the first thing you should do in Canada is make sure we get our foreign registry up and running, with some teeth in it. That's number one.

For number two, I would start asking the Chinese embassy why we have so many individuals stationed in Canada versus in the population of the United States, which is 10 times our size. I would make it very clear to the United States that we won't tolerate police departments and will put controls on them.

Make sure they understand that if they're caught, they're personae non gratae and they're sent immediately out of the country, so we have some controls. Recognize what the united front does. Recognize that we have some individuals—from an MP to a senator—who have been alleged to be speaking on behalf of China. Let's not whitewash this. Let's take it seriously and do something about it. I think we owe it to Canadians.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

David McKenzie Conservative Calgary Signal Hill, AB

Thank you, sir. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

Mr. Fitton-Brown, our country right now is inviting foreign direct investment from Qatar. My concern in that respect relates to what we understand to be Qatari funding of the Muslim Brotherhood. That's not benign investment in economic or industrial development; it is the fostering of destabilizing forces—indeed, terrorism. How do we navigate a path, and can we do both—that is, invite legitimate foreign direct investment and clamp down on subversive efforts?

12:55 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Edmund Fitton-Brown

That's a great question. Clearly, Qatar supports and sponsors the Muslim Brotherhood—there's no doubt about it. We could document that with the various key figures who have been based in Qatar. It also supports Hamas. As you know, the Hamas leadership is present in Qatar at the moment. Qatar also has Al Jazeera as, effectively, an organ of state. It's a media empire, but it is also supporting a Muslim Brotherhood agenda outside of Qatar itself. The way to look at Qatari direct investment is whether it is taking place in sectors that you regard as strategically sensitive. I think that's the key.

I don't know what Canadian legislation is in this regard, but if you have special legislation that makes the education sector, for example, have special regulations to be particularly sensitive to the health and well-being of Canada, or if you have a similar structure that affects what sort of control people are allowed to have over media organizations, these are the areas I would recommend looking at.

Also, of course, Qatari lobbying goes very far in places like Washington, D.C., so if you have rules relating to whether people are allowed to be paid lobbyists for Qatar and then still serve in sensitive areas of the Canadian government or other parts of the Canadian body politic, you would want to enforce them. I think that's the thing to review.

Nobody is saying that Qatar shouldn't be allowed to invest in other countries. It has a large surplus. It has a sovereign wealth fund. If it wants to buy up large chunks of real estate, football clubs or things of that kind, I don't think anybody sees any great harm in that, but we have seen clear evidence that they have—

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Adam Chambers

Thank you very much. We're slightly over time.

Mr. Naqvi, go ahead.

Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you.

I will go to Mr. Fitton-Brown so that he can complete his thought, but before he does that, I do....

I am listening to the testimony very intently, but I'm not hearing from anyone, “Don't engage with China or Qatar.” I'm not hearing anyone say that we were not aware of some political challenges when it comes to those two countries. Nobody is saying that they're the bastion of democracy out there. What I'm hearing is—I think, Mr. Clement, these are your words— “eyes wide open”, “safeguards”, “be vigilant”. Can we get some guidance from both of you?

I will start with Mr. Fitton-Brown as to what kind of diligence or vigilance you would advise us to be mindful of as we engage in our trade diversification and engage with these countries, such as Qatar and China.

12:55 p.m.

Senior Fellow, Foundation for Defense of Democracies

Edmund Fitton-Brown

They're slightly separate cases, not because.... Both cases belong in the same hearing because they both represent an opportunity and, at the same time, a potential risk or threat.

Of course, there's a huge difference of scale, and that is a big deal. Dealing with China is just different from dealing with Qatar. You have to take, effectively, a national decision about how closely you want to embrace China commercially because, ultimately, it will come to have influence in any country with which it has a close trading relationship. I think, for example, that it'll be much harder to negotiate a treaty with China that in any way cramps its freedom of action. It won't be ready to do so because it considers that it is negotiating from a position of strength, as, if you like, the “rising economy” of the world.

Qatar is much smaller. It's therefore much easier to deal with, as long as you concentrate on it. The difficulty with Qatar has always been that people have been rather complacent about it, saying, “Well, what could the problem be?” With a small country like Qatar, if they want to invest in Canada and want Canada to be a friendly partner in foreign policy.... At a time like this, for example, when they've been hit by Iran for no good reason, in the context of the current hostilities in the gulf region, they want western friends, western partners and capable NATO members like Canada. When you are dealing with something like Al Jazeera, with the Qatar Investment Authority or with a large Qatari investment in some sensitive sector of your economy, you are entitled to drive certain conditions and say, “There are areas in which we reserve the right to make sure that we are not giving away our sovereignty over some area of particular sensitivity.”

1 p.m.

Liberal

Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

I have the same question for Mr. Clement.

1 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Clement Advisory Group, As an Individual

Garry W.G. Clement

I agree with the previous speaker. I don't think there's a comparison between Qatar and China. It's sort of like the elephant and the ant. We're the ant going into China.

I think you have to understand that China comes from a totally different viewpoint than Canada does. Democracy does not fit into their vocabulary. The rule of law does not fit into their vocabulary. The ability to obfuscate our Parliament is something they thrive on. We have to go in recognizing that they're willing to do that.

How far we want to go.... We have to look at allowing them into our universities for study agreements. Whatever is done in that university is going back to China. If we allow them into any of our telecommunications networks, all of that is going back to China.

Understand that they don't operate from the same playing field. Can we trade with them? Yes, but let's be realistic on how far we're willing to go, and at what cost.

That's why, when I heard about this police agreement with the RCMP.... How did that get tacked on to trade? I don't understand. This goes far beyond a trade agreement, and it is hugely fraught with danger.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Mr. Irvine, I wanted to come to you. You spoke about the importance of China to the growth of the lobster industry for Canada. When you hear some of these concerns, what's your guidance to us as to how we reconcile the economic interests of Canada and the prosperity of our farmers and our fishers with some of the security concerns raised?

1 p.m.

Executive Director, Lobster Council of Canada

Geoff Irvine

It's very complicated. I think you're doing the right thing. You're studying it. We have to have rules in place. I think we have to go into this with our eyes wide open, and I think our exporters certainly do.

They understand that there are some differences in China and in many of the markets in which we sell products. We count on our governments to ensure that we're protected and that we're doing the right thing, such as we can. It's tough balancing the benefits of a market like this with all of these things, and I think we all recognize that it's complicated.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Yasir Naqvi Liberal Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you.

1 p.m.

Conservative

The Vice-Chair Conservative Adam Chambers

Thank you very much.

Mr. Savard-Tremblay, go ahead.

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Irvine, China has lifted its lobster tariffs until the end of 2026. Technically, it's already done. It's a good thing and we made up some time. That said, on January 1, 2027, we'll have the same problem. Are your members or the businesses you represent concerned about that?

1 p.m.

Executive Director, Lobster Council of Canada

Geoff Irvine

On the live lobster side, there's great worry, which is why they continue to try to diversify the market. It's a big worry. I don't know how much better I can explain it than that. We can always sell our lobster somewhere. There's rarely ever a single lobster that we don't sell. It's just that we want to sell it in the best markets.

We'll find other markets. We processed a lot more lobster last year when we couldn't sell it live to China. We sold it all. Our industry is very resilient, and I'm certain that if we lose the market again, we'll find another place to sell the product.

Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay Bloc Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot—Acton, QC

What is the current state of affairs? I imagine you talk to governments. Are they saying discussions are ongoing? Are they telling you nothing is happening at the moment? Are they optimistic, pessimistic or in a good mood?

Is there a sustainable solution that could be applied starting at midnight, December 31?

March 12th, 2026 / 1 p.m.

Executive Director, Lobster Council of Canada

Geoff Irvine

We're definitely always in communication with the provincial and federal government departments we work with. We are always pushing them to make sure we maintain market access everywhere. It's complicated because we have lots of market access issues in Europe, in Asia and everywhere in the U.S.

The mood is one of concern, uncertainty. We're going into 2026, the spring production, worried about CUSMA renegotiation, worried about the ongoing tariffs in China, worried about the price of fuel and the price of everything with the Middle East war. We're worried.