Evidence of meeting #38 for Medical Assistance in Dying in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was maid.
A video is available from Parliament.
6:45 p.m.
The Joint Chair Hon. Yonah Martin
Thank you.
Next we'll go to Mr. Maloney for five minutes.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to thank both witnesses for being here today.
I want to pick up on something you said, Dr. Freeland. I'm assuming you've read the reports from this committee in its previous incarnations.
6:45 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors and Co-Chair of MAID Working Group, Canadian Psychiatric Association
Yes, I've had the opportunity to read them.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
In our report in June 2022, we recommended the following:
We must have standards of practice, clear guidelines, adequate training for practitioners, comprehensive patient assessments and meaningful oversight.... This task will require the efforts and collaboration of regulators, professional associations, institutional committees and all levels of government and these actors need to be engaged....
Do you agree with that statement?
6:45 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors and Co-Chair of MAID Working Group, Canadian Psychiatric Association
I think those are important parts of being ready for this. Yes.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you.
You mentioned that you were—I assume, based on what you told Mr. Fast—involved in the practice standards development process on behalf of the CPA. Is that correct?
6:45 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors and Co-Chair of MAID Working Group, Canadian Psychiatric Association
We were asked as the CPA organization to provide some representation and contribute to the development of the standards, yes, and give feedback.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Okay, and if I heard you correctly, you said that 100 psychiatrists have registered for the curriculum so far. Is that what you—
6:45 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors and Co-Chair of MAID Working Group, Canadian Psychiatric Association
That is what I understand regarding the people who are registered for that. I can call myself one of them.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Okay. Thank you for that.
You said that about 50% of the psychiatrists in Canada are part of your organization. How many psychiatrists are there in Canada?
6:45 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors and Co-Chair of MAID Working Group, Canadian Psychiatric Association
There are just shy of 5,000. We are at just under 2,500 psychiatrists.
6:45 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Okay. One hundred out of 5,000 psychiatrists in Canada signed up to be part of this new curriculum for providing MAID to people with mental illness. Is that correct?
6:50 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors and Co-Chair of MAID Working Group, Canadian Psychiatric Association
In terms of who is currently signed up, that is the information I have been provided. I would say that the CPA is not monitoring the exact number of psychiatrists participating—
6:50 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Okay, but you would agree with me that this is a pretty low number. My math is not very good, and I'm not going to guess the percentage, but it's not very high.
Don't you think it would be appropriate that, before this process is rolled out, a much larger number of your members have not just registered for but completed the curriculum?
6:50 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors and Co-Chair of MAID Working Group, Canadian Psychiatric Association
I'm sorry, but you cut out at the last minute there.
6:50 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Let me put it another way. Would you agree with me that it is important that anybody who is being consulted on MAID for somebody with a mental illness has participated in and taken courses as part of this curriculum?
6:50 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors and Co-Chair of MAID Working Group, Canadian Psychiatric Association
I think one of the things to consider—and I think Ms. Birenbaum did a really nice job of elucidating this—is that psychiatrists are trained on a number of the important issues as experts providing consultation to a process of assessment for MAID. All psychiatrists undertake a minimum of five years of training, and what we focus on is diagnostic assessment, treatment planning, evidence-based approaches—
6:50 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
I don't want to interrupt and I don't want to be rude, but I'm limited in time.
I agree with you that psychiatrists undergo some very serious training—extensive training—but you have been part of this process development and have helped to prepare this curriculum, yet only a very small number of psychiatrists have taken part in it. Do you not think it would be preferable if a much larger number of your membership—and in fact psychiatrists across Canada—take the courses before they participate in the process?
6:50 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors and Co-Chair of MAID Working Group, Canadian Psychiatric Association
Those courses have only just been launched. The curriculum has only been made available since the fall.
6:50 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
That's precisely my point.
In our mandate at this committee, we've been tasked with determining the state of readiness. If only 100 out of 5,000 psychiatrists have taken courses in this curriculum.... I'm sorry. In fact, they haven't taken them. They've registered for courses in the curriculum. Would you agree with me that perhaps that casts some doubt on readiness?
6:50 p.m.
Chair of the Board of Directors and Co-Chair of MAID Working Group, Canadian Psychiatric Association
I'm not sure about that.
I would still stand by the role psychiatrists can play as part of MAID and assessment. The point of being an expert and providing an expert opinion to those who may be trained to be assessors and providers.... I believe that's what's stipulated as part of the Criminal Code, and I believe that would be a role that many psychiatrists could play. They are already trained to provide expert consultation and opinion.
6:50 p.m.
Liberal
James Maloney Liberal Etobicoke—Lakeshore, ON
Ms. Birenbaum, you said that the subcommittee has 37 members who are part of the Canadian Bar Association.
