National Defence Committee on June 6th, 2007

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

Though for reasons quite appropriately articulated by our Minister of Defence, Canada does not produce lists for quite understandable security reasons, as is true with other nations, in the facilities to which our corrections officers have been granted access—there's three of those—the Afghan authorities themselves post the numbers. In the large Kandahar facility, at approximately the time of the 17th visit of officials—there have been over 20 visits now—there were 838 people in that particular facility. That's on the Afghanis' registry. In the national defence, the Afghan NDS facility, also in Kandahar, there were 40. And in their police facility there were 35.

So if large numbers were suddenly to go missing, that would be very evident. That registry is open for inspection, though it is not our job, nor our responsibility, to do the monitoring. And if there was any radical change in those numbers it would be evident, it would be reported, and would have to be accounted for.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We'll move to the government side again, to Mr. Khan and Mr. Goldring. You have five minutes.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, colleagues, Ministers, for being here. I'll be very short and quick.

Since everybody is putting things on the record, I'd like to do the same. Mr. Chairman, I want to point out for the record that it was the Liberal government that deployed the troops in Afghanistan without debate and without vote. It was the Liberal government that deployed troops to southern Afghanistan. It was the Liberal government that approved the inadequate detainee agreement. I congratulate the government for improving upon it.

As far as the human rights issue is concerned—

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll have a point of order from Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I'm just wondering if it's the report that we're supposed to have from him that he's making right now.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That's not a point of order.

Continue, Mr. Khan, we will not take that—

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Thank you, sir.

As far as the human rights issue brought up by the NDP is concerned, this government stands up for human rights. The examples are many, such as the Air India inquiry, the Maher Arar apology, the Chinese head tax, and the Japanese internment.

I am also perplexed by the comparisons drawn by my colleagues between the Second World War and the current conflict. That was a war between states. It was not a war between a state or NATO versus transnationals and insurgents. That is not a state. The examples of Guantanamo Bay and Afghanistan also perplex me.

However, my question is to the Minister of Development. Very quickly, could you confirm for me, madam, that there are 335,000 Afghans benefiting from small loans and that 75% of them happen to be women? There are 10,000 families being fed in Kandahar, reaching 3.4 million for the World Food Programme; and 350,000 children in Kandahar—again, the dangerous area—have been vaccinated against polio...targeting seven million.

My question is to you, madam: after Operation Medusa, what projects, if any, are taking place in Kandahar and the environs? And Minister of Defence, my question to you, sir, is whether the operation to secure Kajaki Dam is a military operation, or is it for the purposes of provincial development?

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Khan.

Mr. Goldring, do you have a quick question, to give the ministers time?

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Madam Secretary of State, you had indicated that you visited Afghanistan just recently, and you gave some very compelling remarks on your interactions with Afghans. I'm wondering if perhaps you could comment on whether you had been speaking to some of the military who were there too and whether they shared your same sense that we are doing well for the people of Afghanistan. Do you have any other stories about your interaction with the people of Afghanistan that were particularly poignant? And could you comment possibly to clarify their sense on the continuation of Canada's involvement? Do they have a fear if Canada is not?

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Goldring.

Madam Verner, or perhaps first to Mr. Khan's and then Madame Guergis? I'm sorry, Mr. O'Connor.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

I have just two quick things.

One, just to make certain there's no misunderstanding on numbers of prisoners, those numbers don't have any relationship to Canadian detainees; they are criminals, etc. Just so there's no misunderstanding, the press doesn't report that there are huge numbers of detainees.

The other one is with respect to the Kajaki Dam. The intention of securing that area—and right now it's penetrated by a lot of Taliban—is to unleash its ability to generate electrical power. Electrical power is in great need in the south so that industry and normal folk can live properly. They need power, and that's what's behind that.

I'll hand over now to Ms. Verner.

[Josée Verner, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and my dear colleague.

The figures you gave are indeed precise and they are available on our website. It is important for the Canadian population to follow the overall results. This website is therefore regularly updated.

Based on the published figures, operation Medusa has allowed us to increase the number of development projects in the Kandahar region to approximately 200. This operation also allowed the population to elect some 150 community development councils.

You mentioned data concerning micro-credit, among other examples of results in Kandahar. The most recent figures available show that 335,000 Afghans, of which three quarters were women, took advantage of small loans. Moreover, MISFA, the Microfinance Investment Support Facility for Afghanistan, the organization that manages these funds, has just opened offices in Kandahar, which is good news for the people of that province.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Minister Verner.

We will move to the opposition side, with Mr. Patry and Mr. Eyking.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. My question is for Minister O'Connor.

Minister, recently two individuals detained in Afghan prisons told Correctional Service Canada officers visiting their penitentiary that they had been mistreated.

Did the Canadian authorities investigate the matter?

There is no way to find out. The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade and the Department of Public Safety keep passing the buck.

As a result of asking questions, we learned, from the spokesperson for the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, Ambra Dickie, that relevant information on this matter had been forwarded to the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission and to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

What was this relevant information? Why is this information available abroad but not available to Canadians through this committee? Why the silence?

Minister, I would like to reiterate that you are accountable to the people through Parliament and this committee.

Would you commit to providing this committee with the findings of the inquiry into the allegations made by these two inmates, and to provide the correspondence on this issue between the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade Canada, the International Red Cross and the Afghan International Human Rights Commission?

Thank you.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Patry.

Minister O'Connor.

[Gordon O'Connor, Conservative, Carleton—Mississippi Mills, ON]

Mr. Chair, that's not within my realm of responsibility in the defence department, so I'm going to hand it over to Minister Day and then Minister MacKay.

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I have worked with the member for a number of years and I believe his question to be sincere, but I need to correct his suggestion that there was confirmation of maltreatment. If my understanding is correct, as of today there have been four cases since February where individual prisoners have alleged they were maltreated. Our officials, who try as best they can to accurately report everything they see and hear, did not see visible signs of that. However, when an instance like that is reported, it is passed on to the appropriate Afghan authorities.

It also should be noted that people who are classified as Taliban and al-Qaeda—and there are links between the two—have been instructed to say when questioned that they have been tortured, whether they have been or not. That is not in any way to diminish the possibility that somebody may have been tortured. I just share that with you so you can see the difficulty officials have if they are approached by a prisoner who says they've been tortured and they don't see any actual signs of it. They also know that these people have been told to say they have been tortured. It makes it difficult for them, but they do report the allegations. There have been four such reports to date, of which we are aware.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Minister MacKay, please.

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

Just to follow up on Mr. Day's comments, that is in fact the case. On the allegations of abuse the member refers to that occurred in April, Canadian officials immediately informed Afghan authorities in Kandahar. They were passed on, and the information relevant to those particular cases was provided to the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, as it should be, and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

The Governor of Kandahar and the director of the national security directorate at the facility in Kandahar were also given the information we had in our possession. The information relevant to this case will be pursued by the Afghan authorities, and they will of course in time report back to us, as per the agreement.

So we've taken these allegations of abuse very seriously. We've acted upon them inside the parameters of this new enhanced agreement, which is proof that it has already begun operation. The names and locations of the detention centre where this allegation originated were provided, and the two individuals in question made their complaints in the presence of NDS authorities.

So there is no question that the Afghan authorities themselves are aware of and seized with acting and reporting on this particular allegation.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you. That concludes that time span.

We go over now to Ms. Gallant, of the government, and then back to the official opposition.

Ms. Gallant, five minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Through you, to the Minister of Public Safety, first of all, in response to your comments, I would like to confirm, as MP for the riding that is home to CFB Petawawa—and that is the “Training Ground of the Warriors”—and on behalf of the women and men who serve there in Canada's armed forces, that they are distressed over the opposition intimating that they are somehow guilty of war crimes.

Now, this committee did travel to Afghanistan, and one of the places we visited was the hospital. It was truly extraordinary the way our medical military personnel would tend to our wounded, sometimes having to pronounce them dead, and then with the same level of professionalism, treat the insurgents and the Taliban. It's truly incredible what they're able to do.

The soldiers and their families do not understand why members of their own country's Parliament seem more concerned over the well-being of those who seek to destroy them than their own soldiers' safety and security.

Now, when the defence committee visited Afghanistan, we did see the training school for the Afghan National Police and were briefed by Mr. Fudge on the training of the Afghan National Police, and on the fact that they had to begin at the stages of literacy, and then human rights, even before they got into the police training.

My question is this. Perhaps you could please report more details on the activities of the RCMP in Afghanistan—border security—as it applies to your department's jurisdiction.

Minister, here at home your department is responsible for safeguarding public infrastructure and emergency preparedness, recognizing that security must first be established before infrastructure can be developed. What steps have been taken to safeguard the critical infrastructure, from the standpoint of civilian protection in Afghanistan?

[Stockwell Day, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

There are a number of questions there. I'll try to address them as succinctly as possible.

On the question of infrastructure, it's important that Canadians know our troops literally risk their lives daily, in many cases to protect the people who are doing the development work. These people are there, at Canada's offering, to do anything from working at health care facilities to helping agricultural development and looking at education facilities. They literally, in many cases, have to be escorted and protected when they go about their work. In fact, when they've completed a project, that project has to be protected.

All the projects that are done, as Minister Verner indicated, are for the good of the Afghan people, and yet for the Taliban and the other insurgents, it is their mission to kill the people who are doing the good work, including Afghan people and foreign development workers, and also to destroy the very projects that are meant to raise the standard of living in Afghanistan.

So Canadians should know that our men and women in uniform are literally giving their lives to that ongoing development. It's an important factor.

In terms of some detail, one of the days that I was in Afghanistan, not too long ago, I observed our RCMP officers there training Afghan National Police. I had wondered before I got there how the Afghan nationals were going to receive training from, let's face it, people from another country. I was impressed at the level of openness of these men—it was mainly men; it was all men on the particular division that I was looking at—to receive training. In this particular case, our RCMP officers were showing Afghan police how to stop an approaching vehicle, but respecting the lives of people in it—so not stopping it with rockets, but stopping it—how to have the people exit the vehicle, how to check a vehicle that possibly has explosives embedded in it, and to do it in a way that would not only be safe to the former inhabitants of the car, but also to themselves.

This was a day-long exercise. The Afghan National Police officers were intent on learning how to do this. They seemed incredibly appreciative. At the end of the day, they were given, as they are at each stage of training, a certificate of training. I can tell you, with their new uniforms, as the Minister of Foreign Affairs has indicated that we're supplied, with the knowledge that they had, they stood proudly at attention. They received these certificates and they were feeling so good about what they had learned.

I say this to opposition members. It's okay to talk about the good things that are happening in Afghanistan. You don't have to worry about that. It's quite proper to criticize the government, but it's okay to talk about the good things too.

[The Co-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Minister Day.

We'll go to Mr. McGuire.

[Joe McGuire, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I think the government members and ministers should stop making these offensive and demeaning remarks about where the opposition is coming from, where the Parliament of Canada is coming from, in supporting our troops in Afghanistan. It demeans everybody. Particularly, it demeans the ones who are making these remarks.

I want to continue by saying that our troops are doing everything we're asking, NATO is asking, and this country is asking them to do. One thing that it doesn't appear we are doing is this. The Taliban continuously recruit, and particularly in Helmand and Kandahar provinces, and we're told this is happening because we're not getting food to those populations that are supposed to be pacified. We're not getting the schools built in those two provinces. We're not getting health care centres built in those two provinces. We're not getting food anywhere within a couple of kilometres outside of Kandahar city. Why aren't we deploying more people through our development agencies and through our food agencies, and really making an impact and making our military success worthwhile? There's no point in having military success when we can't follow it up with civilian success on that side.

We're continually told that we are falling down on that. It's not just the Senlis group. There are other groups saying we're having very minimal impact outside of Kandahar city and Kabul, in the rest of Afghanistan. What are we doing in Helmand province and Kandahar province, where our soldiers are, in that regard?

[Peter MacKay, Conservative, Central Nova, NS]

I'm going to let the Minister of Defence answer with respect to the security side. I think Madame Verner can similarly provide statistics that quite frankly contradict your assertion that progress is not being made and that food supplies and development are not taking place.

I do appreciate what you've just said, though, that patriotism doesn't have to have a partisan stripe. I think that's why I would reiterate the earlier comment that we should be very proud of what Canada is doing there. We can all disagree on perhaps the methods through which it's happening, but this is a Canadian effort. It's not a political party effort; it's a Canadian effort.