National Defence Committee on Feb. 5th, 2008

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

How much ammunition is fired annually in the theatre of operations? I'm asking you this question because the Americans and the British disclose the amount of ammunition fired. Are you going to answer me again that that's an operational secret?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Give a short answer, please, sir.

[BGen P. Atkinson]

Operational security is something we review on an ongoing basis. I know we received a request for the amount of ammunition we had expended in Afghanistan, and the answer we provided—and let's be clear, it was the answer I provided, because it was me—was that we were holding it back for operational security reasons. We had a sit-down this morning and we reviewed that. We are going to release information on the ammunition expended in Afghanistan on an annual basis. We are prepared to do that. Those figures will be provided through public affairs, I think today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, sir.

We'll go to the NDP for seven minutes. Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

General, thank you very much for the presentation. It was helpful.

The bridges and the causeways are very impressive. It looks like they might be pretty easy, though, to blow up. After you've built them, do you have to actually have 24-hour security assigned to each one?

[BGen P. Atkinson]

The causeway is a great example. It's actually sitting right in front of a major strongpoint. So the answer is yes.

When something is important to the local Afghans, like the small bridge we put in that you saw there.... It enabled the police and the Afghan National Army to move back and forth so they could protect both their village and the area. That's why we put it in at their request. Any tangible signs, like bridges and causeways, are targets for the Taliban, you're absolutely correct. So building the capacity of the Afghans to protect and be responsible for their own security is where we want to be. That's what we're moving towards. As for the causeway, they would love nothing more than to blow that up. Because of the way it was constructed—it was a causeway as opposed to a bridge--it's a pretty big target. So there's a rather sizeable force sitting right at hand, and we have an interest in that not occurring.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

But where you don't have that convenience, will the Afghans themselves mount a group to watch?

[BGen P. Atkinson]

Absolutely. Where we build and help them to do things, there are strongpoints in place. That's why the numbers of Afghan National Police are so important. When a country gets back on its feet, the face it wants to see in its communities is not a soldier, it's a policeman, someone with whom you interact on a daily basis and in whom you have confidence.

I talked about those district coordination centres. That's the 9-1-1 centre. If there's an issue, that's where it comes in. If it's a police issue, then the police take care of it. But they have access to call in the army, because let's face it, Afghanistan is not where they want it to be yet, so the army will be a presence in these communities for some time to come. So yes, absolutely.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you. Great.

Are you expecting another spring offensive?

[BGen P. Atkinson]

There is almost always a spring offensive of some sort. The winter in Afghanistan is pretty severe. They get a lot of snow, it's cold, and then the rains come and things bog down. So historically, they pull back into the mountains and they regroup. That happens to be the time when we expand our influence as much as we absolutely can and when they try to come back and influence themselves. We like to limit their ability to move. We like to limit their ability to conduct operations, and with each year, as I mentioned earlier, the circle in which they can operate is getting smaller. That's obviously the space we want to be in.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you have any pressing need right now for any particular materials or equipment that you don't yet have in Kandahar?

[BGen P. Atkinson]

There's a lot of discussion out there about things we need. One would be medium-lift helicopters, which is no secret. Another is UAVs. The government has programs in place and is working towards that end. Our troops on the ground—there's no doubt about it—are the best-equipped battle group in Afghanistan. But there are enablers that we do need, and those are the two specific ones we're working hard to get. Those capabilities are currently provided by other members of the coalition, but there is a huge stress on those, because they're important and they're in high demand. That's why, obviously, we would like to get those capabilities on the ground to further enhance and improve the ability of our troops to prosecute operations.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You mentioned, in answer to another question, that there's a nascent banking system, which means exactly what you meant it to mean, I'm assuming. Does that mean that most things are dealt with in cash, and if so, how much cash? I remember reading an article about the U.S. sending not a briefcase or a suitcase or a brown envelope or even a truck full of cash into Iraq; it was a planeload. There's a whole question of where it all is.

What about Canada? How do we deal with it? Or do we have no need to deal with cash, and the nascent banking system works for us?

[BGen P. Atkinson]

It is by and large a cash society, but in cities, with commerce as it develops, major work is undertaken. There are contracts. There are banks in Kabul. There are banking machines in Kabul, and there are banking machines in the major cities of Kandahar. We now have a banking machine on our airfield in Kandahar. It was opened up just last year. They are taking the steps towards establishing those things, because obviously taking cash--having other briefcases, truckloads, or planeloads, as you indicated--into a society that is unstable is not a good idea. It is a cash society. It is making progress along those steps, but it's not there yet.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do we have a lot of cash there? Do we take a lot of cash there in whatever currency?

[BGen P. Atkinson]

We pay for everything, all the contracts we do. I have to think about that for a second. Do we pay for them all? I actually don't know the answer to that, so I'll take that on notice, and I can probably provide a better answer. Otherwise I'm going to stick my nose out, and I'll give you something that's perhaps incorrect. I don't like the thought of soldiers walking around with briefcases of money, even though they have guns.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I know it's created all kinds of questions for the Americans in Iraq. There are huge numbers, but it seems to me we might have a smaller version of the same problem. Anything you could answer on that would be appreciated.

This is my last question, if I have time, Mr. Chair, and it looks as though I do.

You mentioned the recruitment of army personnel in Afghanistan. What about recruitment for police, given that they are often targeted, and there seems to be a desire to intimidate locals from having anything to do with that sort of thing. Is that a problem? Is it a problem that's being dealt with? Is it still a challenge that we need to get ahead of? How do you see that one, General?

[BGen P. Atkinson]

They are recruiting police. The issue is that they started the Afghan National Army over three years ago, and it has made tremendous progress, but you need more police than you do Afghan National Army. It took two years before they actually started the recruiting of police, so it is slower.

The training of police is not a military function. The EU have a police training mandate. The Americans have taken this on in a big way, and the Germans are helping out, so there are a number of nations helping out. It takes time to develop. Just to use the example of the RCMP in our own country, they have a training system to produce the beat cop on the street, but then there are the investigators and all the people who do the complex.... This takes time. It will take time.

I believe the number I gave you--75,500 personnel--is the strength of the ANP today. We've gone from ground zero to that point over a period of two years, so yes, they are recruiting. Are they there? Absolutely not. When they first started out, the policemen were not equipped with a lot of protection for either vehicle or personal body protection, and consequently they were a soft target. We've done a lot of work in that area to ameliorate that, and we've taught them survival skills, which I commented on in my remarks.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you, sir.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

We'll finish up with the government side.

Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will be sharing my time with Mr. Hawn.

General, how do you see the process of including the 3,200 U.S. Marine Corps troops and their helicopter assets that you mentioned into the operations in the south under the command of Major-General Lessard?

[BGen P. Atkinson]

Very clearly this is an asset that will be at his disposal. Remember, he is the NATO commander in Regional Command South, and this is 25% more combat power. To talk specifically about how they are going to be used--now we're entering into the realm of operations--all I can say is that brings an awful lot of combat power to the table. I know that NATO welcomes it, we certainly welcome it, and I anticipate that in this campaign season the Taliban will notice it as well.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

After the season, how many of these 3,200 are expected to remain?

[BGen P. Atkinson]

That's a national decision the U.S. will make. Currently they have said they'll be coming for seven months, and they will be working with Commander ISAF, General McNeill, and ultimately General McKiernan when he takes over. They have announced that they are coming for seven months, and then we'll see what comes.