National Defence Committee on Feb. 7th, 2008

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

What is your additional budget?

[BGen Hilary Jaeger]

I will have to check. I think it is about $24 million.

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

I would like to add something important to this discussion, Mr. Chairman.

Remember, throughout the year each department asks for additional money as part of its annual allocation. So in the Department of National Defence, I do go back to the department, clearly, and say, “Could you provide me with additional money, because General Jaeger needs that?”

So we provide that throughout the year to be able to meet this demand, to be able to say money does not prevent.... The department has provided me with a very simple line: money will not prevent our providing the support our men and women in uniform need. And that's where we're at right now.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Semianiw, a little earlier you talked about how important it was for your officers to be well prepared. Can you explain to us the role of a group's tactical commander after a very intense engagement? Is there someone in charge of calming people down or is everyone given a strong cup of tea, for instance, to calm people down? What can be done to prevent post-traumatic stress disorder from developing?

You also said that your officers were well trained in identifying post-traumatic stress syndrome. Is there a prevention program for everyone who enters a combat zone, not only for officers, but also for regular troops? Are they told what to expect? Would it be possible to create a program based on prevention to educate troops on how to deal with post-traumatic stress disorder?

[BGen Hilary Jaeger]

In order to prevent illness and to prepare the troops, the most important thing for a soldier is to be well-trained in his or her area, to have faith in his abilities as a combat soldier, as a member of an armoured unit, as an artillery officer, and to receive realistic leadership training which will be put to the test during the mission. It is this type of teamwork which can really help to deal with various situations.

It is the job of the leaders, after a major or shocking incident has occurred—in an informal manner—to sit down with the soldiers and to talk about what has happened, to go over what was done well and not so well, to see how everyone is dealing with what happened, and to determine whether things are good.

This process, the simple fact of sitting down as a team, is very important. It is much better than bringing in a psychologist; that approach does not work very well.

After a major shock, the thing that can help an individual not to develop post-traumatic stress syndrome is to receive good social support, be it either from one's military family or from one's real family. That is what a soldier needs to deal with a major shock.

If I may, Mr. Chairman, I would like to point out that our leaders are not trained to diagnose post-traumatic stress disorder. They are trained to see if something is not right, is not normal, but they do not make a diagnosis, because the problem may not involve post-traumatic stress disorder.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you.

Mr. Comartin is next.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Generals, for being here.

I have a quick question, Major-General, on the non-battle injuries. Would that number include motor vehicle accidents using military vehicles as opposed to regular vehicles?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Mr. Chair, could I read the definition, please?

The non-battle injuries include those injured as a result of traffic accidents, the accidental discharge of a weapon, any other accidental injuries not related to combat. It also includes those members reported ill, repatriated for compassionate reasons and repatriated for medical reasons. At the end of the day it's a very broad category.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

There was one incident in which we actually lost one of the soldiers. They were moving between bases and the vehicle tipped. Would that fit into the non-battle injury category?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

No, it's not an injury then. If he died, he fell. Then it would be a death. There's another column that shows death due to battle and death outside of battle. There are cases, as you know, in which a soldier has died in a traffic accident. That would be down as a non-battle death, which I think is being very unfair. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and airwomen fall in the theatre of operation; they still fall for the nation. At the end of the day, they fell.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Are that definition and those figures all in that material you're going to send to us?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

I brought it all here for you today.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

General Semianiw, it was you who at the public accounts committee talked about a seminar or conference you were having yesterday and the day before. You were going to look at best practices, if I can put it that way. First, did that go ahead?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

I can respond to that. It's a great question.

We had the conference over the last few days at the Ottawa Congress Centre, and 450 individuals came from all provinces across Canada. The injured, their families, care providers, and individuals in the chain of command all sat down over those two days and looked at themes. The aim of it all, Mr. Chair, was how we can do things better. It did happen. It was opened by the Chief of the Defence Staff, General Hillier.

I was there throughout much of it. It fell to me...General Jaeger was with me. Clearly, it's a partnership of both of us. I'm not a doctor, I'm an infantry officer, but in the end we were both there.

It closed yesterday. It went very well, and they agree. It very much became a community of practice. I promised to bring them all back—I think I said in six months, but it will probably be closer to eight months—to see how we are doing and what we have done, but they have identified things they'd like to see us improve on.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Will there be a report coming out of that?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Yes, there will. We actually promised all of the participants that we would prepare a report for them of the results of the areas they would like to see. To be very clear here, I would tell you we were not surprised in any way with what we heard. I know we don't have the time here today, but I could very quickly tell you what those five or six areas are that we need to stay focused on within what we both do to ensure that our men and women in uniform get the support they need.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Will that report be public?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

I have to look at that right now. There was no press allowed in so that people could speak openly on both sides. I'll have to look at that.

Again, I could tell you the results here today, but clearly you are not going to see details of an individual saying, here is what happened to me. You will probably see it more couched in terms of perhaps we need better integration and better coordination.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I want to follow up on Mr. Bachand's question around prevention. In particular, in this conference was there any discussion about additional training at the very basic level? Were there any suggestions of additional work that could be done there to prevent some of the stress-related injuries?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

To assist the committee, I want to throw this back to the chair here. What are we talking about, mental health or physical ailments?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I am talking of mental health.

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

One of the six areas is mental health. We did discuss a number of issues around what we could do to help. If we had the time, we could lay out the many things that have been done. We did talk about doing more training. We have an OSISS peer support network in place. You are right, it is focused on the back end coming home, not the front end, the prevention piece. But we are starting an educational program that is actually beginning at LFWA. My special adviser on operational stress injuries, Lieutenant-Colonel Stéphane Grenier, is heading off to land force western area, working with General Jaeger and her teams, to start and to continue to move ahead with the educational prevention piece. What we are doing is actually putting it in our training for the privates and corporals as well.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Has your unit looked at other military units across the world? Have you done that kind of analysis in order to be able to present it to those people who do the training?

[MGen Walter Semianiw]

Not just on the mental health piece. Both General Jaeger and I can tell you.... I was just at Walter Reed last week. General Jaeger has been to many more places than I have. She is very connected with her counterparts on this whole issue. So the short answer is yes, in many, many ways to ensure that we don't have to reinvent the wheel, we pick best practices. In the American military they are looking at a thing called Warrior Transition Brigades—and I apologize, I know I'm going on too long here—and it is a way to better coordinate and to look after the injured. It is an idea we're looking at. So we are exchanging ideas amongst the different allies.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Have any recommendations you've made for changes in training been adopted or not adopted?