It could be either.
Evidence of meeting #26 for National Defence in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clients.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #26 for National Defence in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clients.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
It's just a big jumble. It could be a doctor one time, it could be a manager one time, it could be anyone. And the reasons could be any. But the decisions are not being made by qualified clinicians and they're not being made on a clinical basis.
In fact, one of the soldiers said to me that he felt the decision to cut him off from his treatment was made for financial reasons.
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Is this something you find is particular to your area, or do you find it spread across? We've had different witnesses. I've heard that Alberta has wonderful service for people who have different issues.
I come from northern Ontario. It's very sparsely populated, very similar to your area.
Is this something that happens mainly in rural areas or on bases that are not near major centres, or do you have knowledge of any other areas that see the same situation?
As an Individual
Are you referring specifically to treatment being cut off?
Liberal
Anthony Rota Liberal Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
I mean the cutting off of treatment and the overall service that's provided to the individual soldiers who have health issues.
As an Individual
I'm not sure. I really don't know what's going on in other areas of the country, but in our area it's a control issue. It's the mental health clinic's decision to control everything. They choose to disregard the opinion of the treating clinicians and just make their decisions on their own, and they don't have to account to anyone for that. That seems to be specific to what's happening in Gagetown, and it's never happened before. This is a very recent development that we would have that, and I want to make it clear that it has nothing to do with Veterans Affairs.
In my role as a service provider for Veterans Affairs I have no complaints with at all. We have complete support from Veterans Affairs for doing treatment. It's only the CF.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
Welcome. I will start with you, Dr. Geneau. In your presentation, you said that you could suffer retaliation or be punished for having testified before the committee.
Mr. Chair, does the committee have a witness protection program, or does that only apply when their lives are threatened?
Bloc
Conservative
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
What do you mean by “punished”? Surely they are not going to put you in front of a firing squad and shoot you. What can they do to you if they are not happy?
As an Individual
At this time, I'm receiving a small number of referrals for clients who are under the mental health team, but my name was taken off the provider list for the psychosocial team, I believe, in retaliation for previous efforts of mine to advocate on behalf of clients. I suspect I may be taken off the list completely for the whole clinic now as a result of being here. That's what I expect. There was no threat made, of course, but it has happened. My name was literally taken off the list as a provider, and they didn't inform me or discuss it with me; they just took me off.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
You are a civilian practitioner. If your name is taken off the list, you will simply have all civilian patients. Your income will not be reduced. The people who consult you from now on will be civilians. That is not a severe punishment. It is just that soldiers will not be referred to you any more. Is that right? OK.
You asked the department to hold an enquiry into what happened and you have not received an answer yet. The committee is sort of thinking of asking the Auditor General to conduct a formal inquiry. What are your thoughts about that?
There are two schools of thought. On the one hand, people in uniform who have sat where you are sitting say that there are hardly any problems. On the other hand, soldiers say, as you do, that the problems are many. Would asking the Auditor General to report on what is really happening be a solution that you would consider?
As an Individual
I think it would be an excellent source of an audit. I think you're going to get varying comments across different bases. We can only speak to our own experience. I could say it depends on who you're asking the question to. I've read all the proceedings, and I agree that what we're hearing from the powers that be is not the experience. There is quite a contrast.
Our hope is that there is going to be some sort of external investigation, whether it's by the Auditor General's Office or Veterans Affairs.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
One of the reasons that is frequently mentioned is that General Yaeger might get bad information because they want to hide the truth from him. Do you believe that that is the case?
Instead of painting a very negative picture for the general by telling him that things are not going at all well and that a lot of people have fallen through the cracks in the system, the officers around him tell him that the situation is not that bad, that they are trying hard, that they will get there, but that it will take time. In turn, the general tells the committee that they are trying hard and that they will get there.
Is that a reasonable explanation?
As an Individual
May I comment? When we did the ombudsman's complaint, there was an article about that in the newspaper. The manager of the Gagetown mental health clinic was interviewed at the time, and what was reported in our local newspaper was that they had 12 to 15, I believe the number was, fully qualified staff in their clinic to provide treatment. I would assume that that's the same information that was passed on up the line of authority as well.
The fact of the matter is, he must have been counting the cleaning lady, because they really didn't have that many staff; the reality is they only had a couple who were actually qualified to treat PTSD, and that hasn't changed. They still only have a couple of staff. I don't know the exact numbers now; they might have a dozen staff now, but they only have a couple who have the qualifications. He said to the newspaper that there were more than a dozen qualified staff to treat PTSD, so I would guess the same thing was going up through the line of command.
Bloc
Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC
We are told what procedure is followed for a physical wound. If someone has a foot cut off or loses an arm, we know what will be done. I can agree with that. I would like to have asked Dr. Shay how he differentiates between a wound and an illness, but it is a subtle distinction.
Whatever the case, it seems that no procedure is followed in the case of mental illness or post-traumatic stress disorder. Do you agree that the Canadian Forces simply do not know what to do, that no one keeps track, that things can vary from one region to another? Do you notice a lack of procedures in the treatment of mental health problems? Caring for the soul is different from caring for the body and it is sometimes more complicated.
As an Individual
We initially started this process because there was a procedure in place. The OTSSC model has very clear procedures, from the entry-point level for the soldier in terms of assessment--how that process goes--right through the whole treatment process. Our concern was that that procedure was abandoned at Gagetown. So there are very strong procedures in many clinics across Canada, particularly Halifax.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you for being here. Dr. Shay. I'm going to apologize in advance. We brought you all this distance and I get the sense we're not going to get an advantage of your skills. I'm going to come back to you in a minute, because I have to ask some questions of our two witnesses here.
What is the current status of Dr. Hanley? I know he's suspended, but--
As an Individual
He has lost his licence in both Newfoundland and New Brunswick.
NDP
