Evidence of meeting #28 for National Defence in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ptsd.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Roméo Dallaire  Senator, As an Individual
Fred Doucette  As an Individual
Greg Passey  As an Individual
Allan Studd  As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Claude Bachand

This meeting is now in session.

Today, during the first hour of our meeting, We have the pleasure of welcoming Senator Roméo Dallaire. I have crossed paths with Senator Roméo Dallaire on several occasions, particularly when he was the commander of the Royal Military College in Saint-Jean, which, for the benefit of everyone, reopened last week. I think that the general, who has come before us today, will play a preponderant role in Canadian history. I think that, in several generations, Canadian history books will chronicle his heroic exploits.

General, welcome to our committee. You have the floor. We are all ears.

3:30 p.m.

Senator Roméo Dallaire Senator, As an Individual

Mr. Chair, I want to thank you for that eloquent introduction. I hope that I will not disappoint you.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have a prepared text and I have also distributed two charts to which I will refer later on. Certainly they're for public knowledge. They are not scientific; they are a soldier's view of a situation.

Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for the invitation to speak to you about a significant threat to the long-term well-being of the Canadian Forces, its members and veterans, as well as the operational effectiveness of the Canadian Forces. Losses of experienced serving veterans are a serious deficiency to the Canadian Forces' operational capabilities. The committee's excellent sixth report already covers much of what I wish to speak of today, and I hope to provide some updating and also some insight, as well as a few recommendations.

You have had witnesses testify to the failings of the Canadian Forces health services, and more particularly the mental health services, and you have had the commander of the Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Brigadier-General Hilary Jaeger, also testify to the tremendous hard work and the achievements of exceptional clinical results, particularly overseas. How can the same organization succeed and fail at the same time?

Let me begin with a bit of background based on my observations as the assistant deputy minister of military personnel in the late 1990s, as a soldier who was injured by operational stress and diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, leading to subsequent medical release, as a veteran convalescing under continual treatment, and as a senator receiving e-mails and requests for support from Canadian Forces members, veterans, and families of both groups.

At the end of World War Two and on into the Korean War, the performance of the Royal Canadian Army Medical Corps and the Royal Canadian Dental Corps were the envy of our allies. At that time medical and dental schools were directed by former medical and dental officers and the armed forces were getting graduates who were the cream of crop. Over time, the prospect of administering a peacetime force composed of healthy young persons whose only problems were generally the odd cold or sports injury held less and less appeal to top graduates and while they still enrolled, recruitment became increasingly difficult.

With the end of the cold war and demands for a peace dividend, the structure of the medical services began to tumble with ever-increasing cutbacks. When I was the Assistant Deputy Minister of Human Resources, a band-aid solution called Operation Phoenix was applied which did nothing. We then launched RX 2000, a catchy name. Fortunately, it is still ongoing and is producing the results we find in Kandahar, in the theatre of operations.

In 1997, when I was under medical treatment, I made a painful but conscious decision to go public within the forces, and subsequently it was picked up by the general public about my injury of PTSD. Some referred to me as the poster boy of PTSD, a disparaging and hurtful appellation. However, the countless letters and e-mails I have received from families who declare that their spouses' lives and their marriages have been saved by my openness more than compensates for the lack of compassion shown by former colleagues and less than friendly editorialists.

When my book was published in the United States, the back-cover blurb indicated that I had been medically released with PTSD. When I inquired why this information had been added without my knowledge, I was told I was the only general officer to date who had acknowledged being affected by PTSD.

I bring this to your attention because one of the aspects of this injury is the compulsion to hide, to withdraw as if you have contracted some terribly devastating contagious disease such as HIV/AIDS or leprosy, and you believe you have failed and have let everyone down.

As a soldier you have recurring nightmares of placing your colleagues in situations where you actually become a burden, a hazard to their security. At first I thought I was the only one possessed with these nightmares, but others have told me they also have these terrible nights. Subsequently in my mission, I asked to be relieved because of the impact of that injury at that time.

Dr. James Obinski, who is head of Médecins sans frontières, operating out out of the King Faisal Hospital in Kigali during the height of the Rwandan genocide in 1994 describes his PTSD and the impact that it has even on an excellent and also professional medical practitioner:

I was driving along Highway 401 in Toronto as a blue Mazda Miata passed me. It was the same colour as the plastic tarp that I had been dreaming about for months without knowing why. Instantly, my car filled with the sweet semll of freshly killed flesh and blood. I saw sausages and then children's fingers in the red soil around the tarp. I veered as I tried to open the windows. The bumper scraped the guardrail as the car came to a full stop. I sat in the car, the smell and sausages gone. It was snowing outside. The wipers kept rhythm but I had fallen out of time. The worlds had not changed--I had. I sat there, counting pieces of roadside garbage and debris, and then I just drove for a while. I arrived at my parents' house three hours late.

In 1997 I was travelling with my family in Prince Edward Island. We were driving down a road where they had clearcut the sides of the road where there had been principally spruce trees. The large branches had been piled along the roads with the ends facing the road and the leaves or the quills had all rusted and turned brown.

As I drove down that I immediately fell into a trance in which it seemed to me like I was right back in Rwanda and what was piled beside the roads were the bodies of dead and decaying Rwandans. It was so overwhelming that I in fact had to stop and for a considerable amount of time took a lot of support from the family to be able to re-establish myself in my state.

PTSD is an injury. It is recurring. Whether you miss your medication or your therapy or at times even when you think you are fully taking the medication and therapy, you are continuously vulnerable to fall back into those states of shock, those states of horror, and you lose completely a sense of reality of where you are and ultimately you panic. If in a state of depression as you fall into that state, you are susceptible to suicide.

When the CF clinics were being established, two errors were committed. They insisted on calling them mental health clinics although they are now called operational trauma and stress support centres, which is a much preferred location to visit if you are a soldier with psychological problems, because of the stigma attached to mental health issues. PTSD is not an illness, it's an injury.

The second, and perhaps the most serious barrier, is the location of these clinics. The soldiers, as with anyone with a personal health issue, wish to maintain their anonymity. Being forced to report to a base location clearly identified for the treatment of psychiatric or psychological problems causes members to decline self-identification of poor psychological health or treatment. Some request release rather than undergoing the feeling of embarrassment of reporting to these locations and the perceived jeers of fellow soldiers. They are even willing to leave the Canadian Forces.

Early detection and treatment of operational stress injuries are absolutely essential to any recovery or state of “rationality”. The Canadian Forces have responded to this requirement very well and have established procedures to attempt to detect injuries. However you have read and have been told of cases falling through the cracks and this is a fact. This happens because the individual may want to fall through the cracks; some injured personnel wish to totally disappear from any sort of tracking system and contact with their former colleagues who remind them of the problems they are experiencing. This is the existing stigma of the injury taking over their thinking as they feel highly stigmatized even today.

The others are reservists who live far away from urban centres or military bases. There is no formal way to compel these individuals to continue to report or to provide funds for them to do so unless they are released and have come under the care of Veterans Affairs Canada. When it comes to care, they suffer from lethargy that could lead to serious behavioural problems and sometimes even cause them to be a danger to society.

I believe that the Canadian Forces Health Services are geared, in practice and thought, to a philosophy of repair and convalescence leading to rapid return to duty and this is how things should be to remain operational. But, operational stress injury repair is not a knee replacement followed by physiotherapy. This injury requires long-term and essential support before a reasonable amount of convalescence can be achieved, but it may also require specific assistance in order to allow individuals to survive on a daily basis without returning to a state of shock and stress.

I do not believe we have achieved the same level of excellence in this area of medical care that surgeons and dentists are demonstrating. This is a whole new dimension of military health care and something they are not, and may never be prepared to cope with, since wars continue to significantly change over time.

There are discussions about failure to attract the required specialists to the Canadian Forces because of low pay compared with their civilian counterparts. This is not entirely the case, because joining the Canadian Forces and serving Canada is a vocation, and remuneration has always been secondary for specialists, as well as for the general military population. However, responsible remuneration is required.

In any case, the large numbers of psychiatrists and psychologists required to treat the volume of soldiers returning with operational stress injury requires specialists in the civilian sector to pitch in significantly. There are civilian specialists working in some multidisciplinary Canadian Forces clinics, but I am told the turnover is high because the civilian specialists are not all geared to the Canadian Forces working environment, its rules and regulations, and a command hierarchy that from time to time overrules their expert opinion.

The matter of the various civilian pay scales has been mentioned to me. Apparently, a civilian specialist working for the Canadian Forces earns considerably less than one at a community clinic funded by provincial health plans in many parts of the country. Of interest from statistics provided, a psychiatrist in Alberta can earn as much as $195,000 a year, while the top salary in Quebec is $97,000 a year. The national average is $159,000, with Treasury Board topping out at $128,469. From this you can see that someone working full-time for the Canadian Forces will earn almost $29,000 less than the national average. Yet the Canadian Forces don't seem to have a problem in Quebec, seemingly.

Turning the problem over to external health care providers is not an ideal solution, because the Canadian Forces lose control of the service, and it is invariably more expensive than an in-house program.

I am not sure if the committee has been told of the spectrum of operational stress injuries. Not everyone has PTSD. I am told that, of the vast number of OSI cases, less than 8% are classified as PTSD.

However, I am told that a benign case of minor depression can become acute, then chronic, leading to addictions such as alcoholism, drug abuse, inappropriate compulsive behaviour and eventually PTSD, if not detected and treated as a matter or urgency. Treatments that cost a few thousands dollars in the early stages end up costing small fortunes and the individuals may well lose their family, employment and ultimately life as a result of a system's failure to act with the same urgency as for physical injuries. Regrettably, there are inherent delays in getting treatment because of scheduling delays with specialists' appointments. The multidisciplinary approach to treating stress trauma seems to be the most appropriate as it is used in the most successful clinics.

When the Canadian Forces introduced the requirement for a patient to have psychological analysis before being referred to a psychiatrist, some saw this as a method of determining if a soldier was faking the symptoms in order to claim PTSD benefits. Fortunately, specialists are very capable of determining who is genuinely ill or not; they rarely ever need a second opinion. However, the requirement to see a psychologist before a psychiatrist doubles or even triples the time required for treatment to begin because psychologists are in equally short supply, so in seeking the preferred solution we have exacerbated a serious situation by further delaying timely care to the injured.

I shall bring just a few rapid recommendations, if I may, to this committee. I take full note of the House of Commons veterans affairs committee's report and some excellent recommendations therein in regard to closer joint work between Veterans Affairs Canada and the Canadian Forces health services.

I believe it is absolutely essential that the Canadian Forces clinics be moved off the bases and that, if necessary, they even be co-located with either Veterans Affairs Canada clinics or other civilian clinics within the communities. The bottleneck of having patients only begin treatment after seeing a psychologist, to undergo a very lengthy evaluation before a psychiatrist can be seen, needs to be broken. There needs to be a more rapid way of treatment, of identifying those who need the support.

The health of reservists must be tracked for an extended period of time, even up to five years after returning from a special duty area. Of the twelve officers who joined me in Rwanda at the start of the genocide, nine of them have fallen to this injury, the last one nine years after the fact.

We should reduce the number of tours or give more time to family support.

Please look at the charts I have given you. These are not scientific; these are based on my tour when I was the assistant deputy minister of personnel and the results we were looking at then. One chart is sort of a normal chart of stress, which would be a simple curve with the families evolving over the normal period of careers. That was certainly during the Cold War, and you add a bit more stress when you have spousal employment or kids who don't want to move because they're in high school. However, in the 1990s we entered a completely different scenario that is continuing to be exacerbated today.

We are not bringing people down from the exponential curve of stress after these very complex and dangerous missions, with enough time and enough support for them to be able to evolve to the next mission, with this backdrop of saying it was tough, but we lived it, we have gained experience, and we're ready for the next one. What we are seeing, because of the rotations going so fast and the smallness of our forces and the tempo, is that one set of stresses simply leaps onto the other and ultimately it creates a scenario where families and individuals literally crash. And in fact we have even seen cases of suicide.

The Canadian Forces has instituted an excellent decompression program for groups returning from special duty areas such as Afghanistan, but it has no structured program for the large number of individual augmentees who deploy and reinforce these formed units and subsequently return. My son is due back in a couple of weeks from six months in Sierra Leone in Africa, and there is no such program established to bring them back into a level where we can assess them and also provide a level of normalcy.

It is recommended that the Canadian Forces be tasked to address this issue of the large number of individuals who are far more vulnerable than those within formed groups to actually feel the ultimate contagion of post-traumatic stress disorder. The issue is that they are not identified and subsequently not treated or treated too late, by which time they have probably self-destructed, destroyed themselves and their families.

DND and Veterans Affairs Canada should jointly build a national research training development centre in Ste. Anne. I would like to recommend that the institution at Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue Hospital be a place that is the repository of the experience and the knowledge so that we don't fall into the same problem we did the last time, which is to take over ten years to be able to rebuild a system in order to take care of those injured by the psychological impacts of conflict. We have to maintain an expertise throughout.

My last point is there has to be a way of introducing the families in a formal way into the treatment process. Treating only the member, and not the families, is not going to achieve the operational levels we are hoping to achieve by bringing those members who have been injured to a level where we can reuse them.

I leave you with the following comment as my ending. When I came back in 1994 from Rwanda, my mother-in-law told me she would not have survived World War II if she had had to go through what my wife and children did.

In World War II my father-in-law commanded a regiment and was in the field throughout. On occasion they got a bit of information, and that little bit of information was often censored.

However, today our families live the missions with us. They are continually watching the TV, listening to the radio, and clicking to find out when it will be announced that their son, daughter, husband, or spouse has been killed, injured, abducted, or whatever. When we come back from those missions, they are not the same as they were before. Nor are we. A system that cannot absorb the responsibility of sending the individual into these mission areas, taking care of that individual when he comes back, and taking care of the family that we put through the wringer is a system that has a major deficiency.

I realize fully the problematics between federal and provincial, but that should not prevent us from maintaining operational effectiveness of our Canadian Forces by providing support not only to the members but also to their families. This makes our forces that much more effective.

Thank you.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Claude Bachand

Thank you, General, for your presentation.

We will begin the first round with Mr. Wilfert.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, General Dallaire, for coming. I appreciate the recommendations that you put forward to this committee.

I am struck by your comment that this is an injury and needs to be treated as such, as well as your comment about people being continually vulnerable. You mentioned an officer's experiences nine years after the fact.

Some of us just came back from theatre yesterday. There's no question that our soldiers are doing an outstanding job on the front lines in Afghanistan, and we saw the medical facilities. There was one psychiatrist and one psychologist at the base in Kandahar. They do the pre-screening and the screening for return. There are a number of people I met, and I am sure other colleagues met them too. The need is to follow up. Some of them were there for their third duty, and some of them indicated that they had some concerns with regard to their colleagues and how they've been treated.

With regard to Canadian Forces clinics being moved off the base, can you elaborate on how that would work in conjunction with civilian or Department of Veterans Affairs centres?

Also, we've heard testimony about rapid response. There's sometimes a discrepancy between those at the higher echelon level and individuals who would say that they were told to just suck it up, that it wasn't manly to come out and talk about this. Yet you came out eleven years ago, and you were very clear about your situation. I know you didn't like to be referred to as a poster boy, but you had the courage to come out and tell your story.

It does not seem from what we have heard that a lot has happened to allow us to deal with people who are still falling through the cracks. I would like you to respond to some of those comments and the fact that we only have those two in the field in Afghanistan with respect to the support level. I would like to know whether we should be looking at more resources of this kind for our soldiers in theatre.

3:55 p.m.

Senator, As an Individual

Senator Roméo Dallaire

I fear brevity is not my strength. However, when I participated in the committee that advised the Deputy Minister of Veterans Affairs for nearly four years and which led to, ultimately, the creation of a report that led to the charter—and Admiral Murray was the DM at the time—we debated at length the co-location even of the Veterans Affairs Canada clinics on bases to make it maybe easier administratively and so on.

However, there are still frictions within the forces between those who are veterans and recognize that this is an injury and those who are not veterans and say “It won't happen to me”. That friction was there in the fifties, after World War II and Korea. So that friction is underlying some of the stigma that is brought to those who come forward with the injury. There have been occasions on which the place where the psychiatrists and psychologists work on base is well identified, and on which people watch who go there and the word is passed around and so on.

At senior levels and as you go down there is an attitude of recognizing that post-traumatic stress disorder is an injury—it's not a disease, it's an injury, because our brains are physically affected; there are circuits that are burnt, but also it has physical impacts on us. It's an injury that is to be recognized with the same level of urgency and concern as the guy with his arm dangling. However, in a very Darwinian organization that bases its criteria on the overt expression of courage and determination and commitment, there are still those who have a problem with things they can't see. We are very visual people, so it's hard to see the injury between the ears until you start looking into the eyes of the people and raise a few things, and then you see the impact.

I don't believe the forces have sorted out the culture side yet. They've been fiddling with it and so on, but I really don't think they've cracked that code. Battalion commanders are put through an extensive program before they do go into the battalions. They try to pass it on, but you still get the odd jerk running around who can influence 800 or 900 people. So I think formalizing a culture change in regard to this injury is still not completed.

Also, how the veterans are able to influence the non-veterans is of enormous significance, particularly when you notice that veterans are fighting with those inside the wire and those outside the wire. But we had that in Korea and we had that in World War II.

Off base, you have none of that. No one knows the unit commander is going for a medical review, or wants to go. Off base, it is not within a realm that can permit a stigma or an identification. When I was ADM Personnel at the time, three stars and responsible for the medical system, I kept telling the specialists, “Of course you want the person to come to you to speak about his problem, but you're not allowed to sit there and wait until they hit your door”.

One thing the specialists don't do is go out and sell their product. They have to go into the company levels, down to the platoons. They have to go sniff out what's happening and with their expertise be able to identify some of that stuff. They have to go around to the units and pass on information and bring people to them that way. One psychiatrist and one psychologist in that nature of theatre is not enough. There is a lot of training being done to recognize it at the unit level and so on, but you need a couple of pros there. If you really had a bad scenario, like we did in Medusa when we had a bunch of casualities, one of each simply are overwhelmed. And then you start evacuating maybe people for PTSD or symptoms of PTSD and then you get the whole stigma going.

So you need more there off base and support for them.

4 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Claude Bachand

There is another speaker, Mr. Dallaire.

Mr. Bouchard, it is your turn. You have seven minutes.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our committee, General Dallaire.

We heard that soldiers suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder avoided consulting with medical health care professionals out of fear, apparently, that their superiors would be advised of their situation.

Does that fear really exist, and if so, why?

4 p.m.

Senator, As an Individual

Senator Roméo Dallaire

Mr. Bouchard, you can imagine the stigmatization amongst civilians with regard to mental health issues. We have already made up our minds. Each of us has our own prejudices in this regard. So, imagine someone belonging to an organization in which every day you have to show your courage, your determination, your ability to endure stress and be a positive force in situations and who, suddenly, is no longer able to deal with that, not because that individual has lost his arm or has a bad back, but because something between his ears is not working properly. The worse thing is that it's already hard to try to make the injured person understand that things are no longer working properly. If we fail to encourage people to be aware of the fact that they suffer from this injury, they will automatically fear having to ask for help.

Furthermore, there is no doubt that such injuries create uncertainty within the chain of command. As you saw, soldiers arrive in theatre and start to shoot. So we can wonder whether an individual will do his job or panic and run away. This is an operational factor. In fact, we are at war, and it's not like during the Cold War, a period where troops went to train in Germany while waiting for the Russians to arrive. Today, we have a field army that sometimes returns to the garrison to try to heal its injuries.

In that context, commanders have a greater tendency to ask themselves whether regarding an individual, they will take risks or not. This puts pressure on individuals, who then feel an even greater need to control themselves. Those who are injured will not necessarily identify themselves. It's not because they fear that their boss knows or because they're afraid of being seen as a coward: it's because, as individuals, they feel a responsibility to the group. They know that the commander is counting on them and they don't want to be seen as not giving 100%. Maybe they could give 90%, that would be enough, but that's not the maximum.

In light of those two factors together, it is absolutely essential that professionals spend a lot of time seeing those individuals upon their return. The most vulnerable people are, for example, radar technicians from small towns who are sent over there for a certain amount of time but then who go back to their own bases and are alone. These people don't have any experience in theatre. There are also the reservists.

My regiment is the 6th Field Artillery Regiment of Lévis. Two weeks ago, 18 members of that group came back: one seriously wounded and 17 others in good shape. Their families came to the parade and the dinner. Simply by looking at an individual's ability to communicate, you can determine in two minutes if they have a problem. The proactive method is not yet sufficiently developed to save some of these people.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Apparently, a significant percentage of military personnel identified as having post-traumatic stress disorder claim that they're able to recover on their own. What makes them think that?

4:05 p.m.

Senator, As an Individual

Senator Roméo Dallaire

The proportion of individuals truly suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder is 8%. However, 20% of the population is affected at various levels, depending on their experiences. If they receive proper support from their family and their workplace, and if they are allowed a period of readjustment, these individuals can be successful in returning to some normalcy.

However, those suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder have been denied an honourable injury. Getting shot in the behind is considered an honourable injury, but not when the injury is between your ears. We are operating in an organization that has built its team spirit on honour, conviction and the gift of self. Individuals cannot accept suffering from this kind of injury. Many would prefer by far losing an arm rather than suffering from a psychological injury. When it's an arm, you can do something, get a prosthesis, but when it's a psychological injury, a noise, sound, or odour can completely destabilize that individual and even make them a danger to themselves.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Claude Bachand

Very good.

Ms. Black, it is your turn.

4:05 p.m.

NDP

Dawn Black NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

Thank you very much for coming, Senator Dallaire. We're very pleased to hear your testimony. It's great to get recommendations too. I appreciate that.

You mentioned about your own personal experience and that you received some negative feedback from colleagues. I think your courage in going public has made it possible for other people to seek help. I hope you take a great deal of personal gratification and satisfaction from that. Until people do that, it stays behind closed doors, and I think you have done something that's made it somewhat easier for others to come forward and to seek help.

I was intrigued with your accounting of the experiences of having these flashbacks. I've talked to a number of soldiers who are currently going through this. We've had testimony here at committee in camera from young soldiers who described it in almost exactly the same terms. The striking similarities of what people have told me and told this committee when they've gone through PTSD has just amazed me. Clearly there's a way to diagnose this, and clearly we could be doing better, I think, in the Canadian Forces.

One of your recommendations was that the rotations are too frequent now because of the limited number of soldiers. At this point we're into Afghanistan now until 2011, and I think people are going back three times and perhaps even more than that, when I've looked at all the rotations going ahead. What is the solution to that?

4:10 p.m.

Senator, As an Individual

Senator Roméo Dallaire

In 1997, when I was chief of staff of personnel and then went public because we were misguiding our own people, let alone outside, I went to the U.S. Veterans Center for Post-traumatic Stress Clinics, which is in White River Junction, Vermont, to ask them whether all treatment should be the same, such as commanders with their stresses and training, versus soldiers. I also asked them how to help us mature our program rapidly, because they had the experience of Vietnam.

The answer was “We don't want you to go through what we lived in Vietnam, and we'll help you”, because in 1997 they had on the books a number of suicides directly related to Vietnam. They had lost 58,000 troops in Vietnam. By 1997 they had over 102,000 suicides directly related to Vietnam.

This is an injury that never leaves. You cannot get out of it, as Monsieur Bachand asked me, without professional therapy and medication and a bosom buddy. The OSISS program on operational stress with peers is absolutely critical. You need someone who is going to sit there for four hours and not ask you one question, and let you talk and talk. You need that at all times.

Your vulnerability is never guaranteed. It's like they take away your prosthesis all of a sudden. I will give you an example, if I may. I was in Sierra Leone doing work on demobilizing child soldiers--in fact, working for Madam Minna at the time--and I had come back from the rebel area and was crossing the street in Freetown. Out of the corner of my eye I see a coconut vendor who has a machete and he's setting up shop. I keep crossing the road, and all of a sudden he took the machete and lopped the top off a coconut. There was white liquid and brown, and between the sound and the sight, I went totally and completely berserk.

The three people with me sat on me to hold me down for at least five minutes, then slowly I was able to rebuild. About 20 minutes later, I actually gave a briefing. So you have no knowledge of the noise, the smell, the comment that will trigger these reactions.

We have troops in my old regiment, 5th Regiment Artillery, and when I went back last year to a golf game, there were sergeants there who had been ten years in the army. Now, you need at least a year to get them up to minimum strength and then other training, so let's say they had about nine years' operational use. They had been on seven missions!

We have soldiers in the Canadian Forces who have more combat time than veterans of World War II. In so doing, we will continue to see an attrition of them and their families, unless you get the numbers up. It is not about reducing the missions, because we should also be in Darfur and a couple of other places; it is getting the numbers up.

Rebuilding an army is a long-term exercise, so I fear there will be more casualties, simply by burning them out.

My last point is we will probably have people going overseas who are suffering from that injury. God knows, a noise or an event might trigger them back in, and how effective they will be, we don't know.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Dawn Black NDP New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC

The other issue you raised was that of reservists. It has been an issue that's been at this table as well. I'm pleased to see you have some recommendations on that as well. It's something we certainly need to move on.

Other testimony from witnesses has indicated that there's a problem in having information filter up the chain of command around PTSD. Clearly, there's a lot of information that needs to go up the chain of command. Why is it that information about operational stress injuries or mental health issues seems to have such difficulty going up that chain of command?

4:15 p.m.

Senator, As an Individual

Senator Roméo Dallaire

I would say that the situation is significantly different from what it was in the nineties, and we have leaped ahead. Also, it is not a money problem. Never, in one occasion of anything, have I heard that there's not enough cash to do the job. It's often the expertise, and so on, that's there.

However, with this problem of getting information up, it is my opinion that the senior leadership—and you're going down to brigade level, one star, and so on, colonels—know what's going on. I also believe that the troops down below know what's going on. It's the middle gang. And a lot of the middle gang are caught up in headquarters and in processes that don't necessarily reflect the fact that you have troops in harm's way in the war.

You have a middle gang that has a sort of process of bureaucracy to it that doesn't necessarily have that same sense of urgency, nor the ability to move on some of these requirements with the same speed one would expect. We accuse the health system of having disconnected with the operational. Well, I think they've reconnected significantly with the physical side; it's the mental urgency, the urgency of those injured from stress that is still not at that same peak as the other one, and that's because we haven't punched through that middle gang yet.

4:15 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Claude Bachand

Thank you.

Mr. Hawn.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Merci.

Welcome, General. It's good to see you again.

I have a couple of comments and a couple of questions.

We've heard a lot of testimony here, and a lot of it has been critical and in camera. No matter how good the system might be, those are the kinds of folks that are going to come and speak. We also heard some balanced testimony from a soldier and his wife, and the soldier had suffered very significant injuries.

Your point about reservists and tracking them is obviously very valid. The reservists need to cooperate with that as well.

Talking about sorting out the culture and so on, obviously that's important. The pre-deployment training has changed a lot. Are you familiar with the pre-deployment training that's going on now, and can you comment on its effectiveness?

4:15 p.m.

Senator, As an Individual

Senator Roméo Dallaire

Yes. It is a hundred million times better than what we had. To give you an example, my militia regiment, where I'm the honorary colonel, has 25 chaps right now in training for leaving in 2009, and they have already been nearly five months in training. So some of them are getting over a year of pre-training to get into the operational theatre.

That is not an insignificant dimension, if I may say, because the more training, the more instinctive reaction and professional reactions they have to the circumstances they find themselves in, the less the surprise will cause trauma. There is a correlation between very well professionally trained, motivated, supported, focused troops and those who don't have that capability.

This brings me to the augmentees, the “one of”s here and there, and so on, who don't have that time and that cohesion. Some of them only have the minimum of three months, which is a lot more than they used to have, but even that doesn't provide enough for them. They're the ones who fall through the cracks.

There is a way, I am sure, through the contracting arrangements we have with the reservists when they're committed to these missions, that we have an obligation of following them up. Those kids are time bombs out there, and there has to be a way of creating—if not imposing—a continuing link with them.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

It's my understanding that the reserves are getting essentially the same training as the regular force guys when they're going on a rotation.

4:15 p.m.

Senator, As an Individual

Senator Roméo Dallaire

They're in fact getting more.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Yes.

You mentioned suicide rates, and obviously that's an issue. Suicide rates have not increased in the CF. In fact they're lower than the national average of the civilian population. But the critical shortage is of mental health professionals, and that's acknowledged. There are attempts to raise that number. You touched on some of the problems with attracting specialists, and it's not just pay, it's probably a bunch of things. What can we do to attract more?

We're trying to double the number of mental health professionals, and whether those people actually exist out there or not may be questionable. What do we do to attract more specialists and mental health professionals into the CF, either as CF members or civilian specialists?

4:15 p.m.

Senator, As an Individual

Senator Roméo Dallaire

If I may, with respect to the point on the suicides, I went public in 1997 exactly because of a report that said we weren't really getting more suicides than anybody else, and it wasn't because of the missions in Bosnia; it was because they were already predisposed to this.

I think if you take a look at a very specialized group of people who have gone through a whole bunch of training and all their rigours and you've eliminated those who can't sustain that, and then you look at the figures, you might say those figures are troubling. I would caution how you look at the numbers of a specialized group with a lot of training and who have already undergone the attrition of those who would be in the norm of the civilian population.

In regard to the specialists, when I commanded the Quebec area there were not even enough for the civilian population, so how would we meet our requirement? How do you argue that our requirement is more important than the other requirements? How do you argue that the families of these people are more important than the families of others?

I would contend that the only solution in this regard is a continuity of programs. That is, between the Canadian Forces and Veterans Affairs, guaranteeing that both the therapist and the injured person have a continuum for treatment. That builds trust with therapists that they're not going to get shuffled every couple of months to different patients, that they'll only have ten visits. These artificial limitations are absolutely stupid and preposterous. You treat a person until the person is well or can reasonably function, not by a limited number of visits.

I think you create that continuum between Veterans Affairs Canada and the Canadian Forces in regard to the therapists. And secondly, get into the universities and recruit like mad. If you have to pay a prime for that, fine. Be competitive with civvy street, and go get them.

The money we invest in attempting to bring back those who have been injured--and we do bring a large number of them back through accommodation and so on--is peanuts compared to the investment we're putting into training them and the loss of the experience of that veteran to be able to help others. It's like a business plan: you pay the price up front.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Unfortunately, it's a very long process. We've come a long way, as you said, but there's an awful long way to go.

You mentioned that we haven't achieved the same level of care with physicians and surgeons. Is it the complexity of the mind--it's easier to fix a broken arm than a broken mind? And do you think we'll ever get there?

4:20 p.m.

Senator, As an Individual

Senator Roméo Dallaire

When we started to really shift gears on mental health after Operation Phoenix in the late nineties, we said we had to fast-track operational injuries to meet the sense of urgency. There was an argument that the injuries of the mind had to be as fast-tracked as the physical ones. We were having problems with just the physical injuries.

There was an attitude that you had to demonstrate the same sense of urgency to identifying the injury and bringing support to it, particularly in the first three to six months of post-deployment, where your greatest return is. I'm not sure whether that's been achieved. When you have a battalion of 800 coming back, you're overwhelmed. There's not enough surge capacity for these big deployments within the first three to nine months. If you don't hit them then, all of a sudden five or six years later there's a sound, and bingo, the person literally crashes.

It took me four years. You become a non-entity. You are a vegetable for months and months, until therapy and medication are able to bring you back.

4:20 p.m.

Bloc

The Vice-Chair Bloc Claude Bachand

It looks like Mrs. Brown will be our last questioner today. It's a five-minute period, so go ahead, please.