National Defence Committee on June 15th, 2009

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

Can you tell me how long it may take MAJAID to get to a crash in the vicinity in the Northwest Passage?

[Col P. Drover]

It's within 24 hours, for sure. It will take up to 12 hours to mobilize capability, then the flying time, and the drop into the site. That is very reasonable when you consider the requirements. We have to rig a special aircraft, get the crew organized. What's significant is that prior to that MAJAID kit arriving, we would have up to three Hercules with additional SAR techs and additional tents and clothing that they would throw to the site.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

How long does it take to get out there?

[Col P. Drover]

It wouldn't take any longer than 12 hours, depending on where we're going. It could be eight hours or less.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I don't think people would survive in those two situations.

We've been talking about new planes for a long time. I forget the names of the companies—we're lobbied every day—but are those two outside planes the only two that could do the job?

[Col P. Drover]

The replacement isn't my portfolio. I will limit my comment to the fact that we have the Hercules and the Buffalo that need to be replaced. The aircraft are very old and very expensive to maintain. What they do serves our requirements, so we're looking to replace them. I can't comment on the actual specifications and performance.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you.

[Larry Bagnell, Liberal, Yukon, YT]

I have one very quick question. I noticed on your incident map that there are lots of incidents. The entire cities of Montreal, Quebec, Halifax, St. John's, and Windsor are covered. Are people lost in those cities a lot?

[Col P. Drover]

Small map, big picture, I guess.

We do a tremendous number of medical evacuations, and those are in there too. Some of it is urban, some of it is a little bit offshore. It's the way it's depicted there, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

Now, Mr. Boughen for five minutes.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Let me add my voice to my colleagues in welcoming you here. Thank you for taking time away from your busy schedules to meet with us.

I have a couple of things. Maybe you could share with us what happens in terms of cooperation with Canada and the U.S., particularly SAR as it refers to the north and Alaska territory, looking at that. Could you let us know how that is working? How do you see it continuing to develop?

[Col P. Drover]

We actually have a very good working relationship with our northern neighbours, both Russia and the U.S. Our control centres and their control centres are in daily communication. Often we will use one of our SAR resources on the Great Lakes and in the Michigan area, areas in their territory. And in the north especially, part of the MAJAID plan is that we would notify the rescue coordination centre in Alaska. Undoubtedly, they would provide assistance, as we would if they had an incident in Alaska. As I say, we exercise this annually with those members. We do a communications check with Russia because they have limited English-speaking controllers, but they have enough that we can communicate as well.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

If either one of you gentlemen could answer this, or perhaps both of you, if you like, what would be the ideal complement of machines and people that you would need to cover all the bases? I'm looking at your draft and your density of action in the southern part of Canada as well as what's happening in the northern part of Canada. We've heard that there's cooperation between the U.S. and ourselves, so that helps to extend our facilities and ability to react. But what's the optimum number?

I'm concerned that we have a reliance on volunteers. The volunteers do a great job, but they're still volunteers, and I'm wondering if we're relying too much on that phase. Are we okay with that?

[John R. Davidson]

As far as the volunteers are concerned, yes, it is a challenge to maintain them. That's just part of volunteerism. Today, generation X and generation Y personnel are not as easily swayed to volunteer. So yes, there are those challenges. But the return that you get from helping your fellow man who is in distress.... This country has wonderful areas that few people get to see, but things do go wrong. The volunteer is a big component of this. In my mind, we can do a lot, and we are doing a lot. I feel that the volunteer has a very important part, but of course I'm prejudiced. It's how we're going to operate in the future. I think the amount of manpower we can bring to bear will offset what has to be fixed, has to be manned. It's going to be a fact of life.

[Col P. Drover]

If I may just add, from our resource mix, I think we got where we are through a number of years of experience. Looking at the level of service that we're providing the government and the Canadian population, it is proper at this time; it is efficient. But that's with respect to the other players in the game, like the volunteer agencies and other government departments that share the burdens and responsibilities. Again, it's much larger than the CF. We haven't mentioned, for instance, the coast guard, and they spend an awful lot on SAR resources and activities off the coast. Again, we couldn't do that. Our navy is not mandated to that, so we can use them. The coast guard is a very important player.

[Ray Boughen, Conservative, Palliser, SK]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Paillé.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you for coming here.

Mr. Chair, I will be sharing my time with Mr. Bachand.

My first question came to me out of the blue. When you are one of the last persons to speak, many questions have already been answered.

I noticed on your incident map that some of the incidents occurred rather far away. The committee is currently looking at the borders in northern Canada that are defended. Is there a line or boundary within which search and rescue operations are truly Canada's responsibility? Is the territory beyond these boundaries considered to be an international zone? That is an issue that is currently being debated. With respect to SAR missions, have you determined with other countries what your intervention boundaries should be?

[Col P. Drover]

The responsibility for SAR actually is kind of coordinated through an organization--ICAO. We are a member of that organization. Basically, all ICAO members agree on search and rescue boundaries. Those are not sovereign boundaries; those are totally different. So in the case of Canada, it's very clear: it's the American border and the North Pole, but on both coasts it actually extends beyond Vancouver Island for 1,100 kilometres and on the east coast it goes out to sea for 1,600 kilometres.

Basically, what that says is that in those defined boxes Canada has agreed to take the search and rescue responsibility. So if you have a vessel that's sailing across to England and it's in distress 300 or 400 miles from Halifax, it's our responsibility. Now, I think it's important to point out that if you're a Canadian registered ship and you're off the coast of Bermuda--I'm not sure if it's Bermuda, probably the U.S. or whoever owns that piece--it's an international agreement that your national flag doesn't matter. In SAR, it's humanitarian. We have this responsibility and we execute that responsibility.

[Pascal-Pierre Paillé, Bloc, Louis-Hébert, QC]

We hear a great deal about incident responses. For example, Coast Guard vessels are occasionally on patrol. Do either the Canadian Forces, or certain volunteer groups, take preventative action when there is more air traffic or more cruise ships on the water in high season? Is any preventative action taken to demonstrate a Canadian presence in the North?

[Col P. Drover]

That's an excellent question, sir. Prevention is a very important aspect.

I spoke and John spoke a little bit about SAR response, but for the prevention program actually Transport Canada has the lead responsibility, and they do it through regulations. They have regional officers that teach aviation safety, similar to the coast guard and its responsibility for prevention.

With organizations like CASARA, there's a value to their program that's not in dollars, because you can't break it out, but they are community leaders. They actually are respected in the aviation communities and they are big on the whole prevention aspect.

There are certain licensing requirements, such as the requirements for life jackets in boats, and all those activities. One--and it's not prevention, but it speaks to that--is the beacons that I mentioned earlier. If all else fails, at least you've given yourself an opportunity to be helped in a very rapid manner. That's an education piece--more education than prevention, I guess.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Colonel Drover, you may not have time to answer my question, but do you have an operations plan ready for the day the government purchases 14 search and rescue aircraft? For the benefit of my colleague, I am talking about Alenia or CASA. Fourteen aircraft are set to be delivered. Where will they be based? Wouldn't this be a good opportunity to locate a base a little further north?

[Col P. Drover]

It's too bad we don't have more time.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Can you send it in writing, then?

[Col P. Drover]

I can answer the question. It's fairly straightforward. Yes.