Evidence of meeting #28 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was arctic.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
And thank you both for coming.
First of all, I have to say I'm incredibly impressed that you coloured inside the lines like that.
12:40 p.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Looking at the map, and obviously from a layman's eyes--and for someone who is not very scientific--the position of the Lomonosov Ridge seems to have stayed the same with respect to Greenland. This is not a facetious question, but how many million years ago is the Russian interpretation of ownership relying on? The further back you go, the closer Russia is to that ridge. What is their frame of reference?
12:40 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
Well, I used to like to say that the Russians' claims for the Lomonosov Ridge were 61 million, 599 million, etc., years too late. There's absolutely no doubt that the ridge originated from the European continental shelf, but as I was explaining, it has migrated 900 kilometres since then to where we find it now. So that's from western Russia and northern Europe. There's still the Russian end of the ridge abutting against the actual present Russian continental shelf, and that's obviously the way they would try to make the claim.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Has that point not changed? Has that point stayed the same or has it moved 900 kilometres as well?
12:45 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
At the scale of the plates, that point would have moved 900 kilometres as well. It's going to come down to, when all these plates were moving, whether the ridge on the Russian side or the ridge on the Canadian-Greenlandic side.... It's going to come down to whether there was a bit of play, you know, as things were trundling 900 kilometres.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
From my layman's interpretation of that again, the Lomonosov Ridge is in the same position relative to Canada as it was 61 million years ago.
12:45 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
Absolutely.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
It's just that Russia has moved away from it. So it is fairly important as to where the data is for ownership.
12:45 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
I completely agree with you. Remembering the issue of scale and what's admissible evidence for UNCLOS, looking at the map—and this is the one that was co-authored by all the participating nations—and at the Canadian side, there is no break between Lomonosov and mainland Canada. At the Russian end, there are a bunch of faults shown, which were provided to us by the Russians.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Right. It sounds like the knowledge is not just ours, obviously, but is shared with everybody. How does our knowledge compare with that of other countries? Or is it truly a world body of knowledge that everybody is sharing freely?
12:45 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
It's truly a world body of knowledge. The various participating nations provided their national database--and data sets, I should say. Where Canadians excel, I think, I guess because of the size of the country, is in interpreting things at a global scale. I think one of the reasons we were given the lead on the project was the opportunity to do exactly that.
Obviously the Russians have a big country as well, and they're good at it as well, although science in North America and science in Russia aren't identical. There are slightly different ways of thinking about geology in Russia compared to North America. Canada, I think, has the expertise to think at the broad scale. In that sense, the Europeans appreciate what we do.
You'd think the Americans would do the same, and they do—not to denigrate their work—but again, we have a much larger land mass to worry about, integrate, and think about in terms of geological evolution. I think we've just become really good at it.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Obviously this would be a partisan Canadian question, but how do you assess our ability to (a) interpret, and (b) sell that interpretation, when it comes to selling a competing interpretation with the Russians? Are you confident that we have the horses to do that?
12:45 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
I would say there's absolutely no doubt in most people's minds that the best geological survey in the world is the Canadian Geological Survey, simply because of our experience and past history. The Canadian Geological Survey was modelled after the British Geological Survey, so it's the second oldest, I guess, but people have suggested that it's time for reverse modelling. So yes, I would put the Canadian survey up top.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
When you say reverse modelling, what are you referring to?
12:45 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
Some of my colleagues in Britain have suggested that the British Geological Survey needs to be rethought and modelled after the Canadian survey.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Okay. That's what I thought.
Who else is using this data other than governments? Are there commercial ventures, resource companies, and so on that have access to all this? How many are using it that you're aware of?
12:45 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
That's a very good question. The map was published in November 2008, so that's a few months ago. The first public presentation of the map was in November at open houses for industry in Yellowknife and Whitehorse. The map was up on a wall and presentations were made. There's absolutely no doubt that Canadian mineral, oil, and gas exploration companies caught on to it right away and understood this principle of the map providing a global context, based on information from around the Pole, to bear on questions in Canada.
I think the latest statistic is that since November.... Is it 1,200 or 1,300?
12:50 p.m.
Director General, Central and Northern Canada Branch, Geological Survey of Canada, Department of Natural Resources
It's about 1,200.
12:50 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
Since November, about 1,200 copies of this map have been downloaded from the NRCan website, which is a phenomenal number in such a short period of time. That's not by government, but....
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Have you been providing assistance to them in terms of interpretation, or have you been asked for assistance in interpretation of the data?
12:50 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
Both. In presenting the map at these industry forums, we obviously explain the map, we highlight its usage. I should say there are four legend sheets that come with it, which are the real heart of it, I guess. We do that to help them understand the product and its uses, although they catch on rather quickly. Then we get a lot of requests on the specifics, what about this interpretation or that interpretation.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
As a department you are open to assisting the Canadian-specific commercial applications.
12:50 p.m.
Senior Research Scientist, Regional Geology, Department of Natural Resources
Absolutely.
