National Defence Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[Karol Wenek]

Based on very preliminary research, because some cohorts have only been back in what I would call non-operational duty for a short period of time, there's no difference in the attrition rates between those who have served in Afghanistan and those who haven't when those samples are matched on a variety of characteristics.

That said, the operation is ongoing. Potentially still an attractor for some people.

Here's an odd statistic for you. You can make of it what you will. We were looking at some of the strengths in various army occupations. I understand the chief of land staff raised this as an issue at SCONSAD earlier this spring, that he was having difficulties in some occupations. As you know, if you look at the casualty lists for Afghanistan, the hardest-hit occupations have been combat engineers and infantrymen. Yet the manning level for those occupations is over 100%, with hundreds of people in the training pipeline waiting to come in. You explain it.

I would speculate that there is some interest in the adventure that represents. Certainly our American colleagues have expressed similar concerns, that once they down tools, if you like, operationally for a sustained period of time, they may have more difficulty attracting some people into the forces.

[MGen W. Semianiw]

The figure you want to kind of hold onto--my folks and I have looked at this, and we always provide this advice--is the number of rotations.

After your third rotation is when you really start thinking about whether you should stay or whether you should go. All the way up to the third rotation in anything, be it Afghanistan or the Congo, operationally, it is still part of the challenge of why you joined. After the third, it becomes a very different understanding or construct. That is why the commander of the army has in place a policy to ensure that people don't....

You'll see those who have gone on four or five. In many cases, they want to. If they want to, they'll go. But after three or four, it's your choice, and the army will step forward and support you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

We'll give the floor to Ms. Neville.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you very much for coming here. You clearly have a well-thought-out, comprehensive plan.

I want to follow up a little bit on Mr. Hawn's question in terms of diversity in the military. I think you touched on it, but I'd like to know a little bit more about what kind of outreach you're doing, particularly to get women, aboriginal populations, and visible minority populations expanded a bit.

I'm also interested in knowing whether you have looked at the assessment tools you use at the beginning, when you're recruiting, for cultural or gender bias. Could you talk a little bit about that?

[MGen W. Semianiw]

I'll let Commodore MacKeigan start off by telling you what they're doing on diversity on the west coast, in particular, to give you some hard examples.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Is it different across the country?

[MGen W. Semianiw]

It is different across the country. This is the first thing I think we have to understand. You can't take a cookie-cutter approach with the country and try to say that every province is the same in social makeup. So it is a slightly different approach, agreed?

I'll turn it over to Commodore MacKeigan to tell you what's happening on the west coast, on the diversity side, and then I'll turn over to Karol to tell you a little bit about the programs we have at the other end. He'll talk about what you're going to hear and see when you walk into a recruiting centre, whether you're aboriginal or not.

[Cmdre Daniel MacKeigan]

In a nutshell, people like to join the armed forces if they see people who look like them doing interesting things in uniform. So if I want to recruit from any group, I want to have young adults out in front of them who look like them. That doesn't necessarily mean visible minorities. It is in all sorts of ways. In my communities in Vancouver, Toronto, and Montreal, I place great emphasis on representing the diversity of those local communities in my recruiting centres, and that encourages people to join. That's the first thing.

I have women commanding officers in my recruiting centres. As for gender bias, we scrub through all those tests we do and make sure there are no biases, as best we can, as you would in any modern organization. Most of them have to do with cognitive ability and whatnot.

For recruiting among aboriginal and first nations--you know, Dene, Gwitch'in, and what have you--the most important factor is personal and permanent presence and engagement. They see the same people month after month, year after year, who are saying the same thing. They are making promises and keeping their promises. That's the single greatest determinant in attracting aboriginal and first nations people into the armed forces, so that's where I place my emphasis.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Before you move on, do you have any information on the participation of women, aboriginal, and visible minorities throughout the organization? How many are at senior levels? How many are at entry levels?

[Karol Wenek]

Mr. Chair, I don't have that information on hand, but we do maintain a database that tracks people. It's kept separately from the main human resource management information system database simply because that information is personal. People self-identify as belonging to these groups. We can't compel them.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I know that.

[Karol Wenek]

So we keep that database confidential and separate, but we do track them to see how they are progressing, because as part of our periodic systems reviews that we are required to perform under the Employment Equity Act, we look to see if certain groups are disadvantaged in any way. I don't have the statistics on hand, but it's something we could obtain for you.

Now, to go your earlier question in terms of some of the programs we have in place, I mentioned the aboriginal entry programs as one set of activities. We also have an aboriginal leaders forum. Part of the strategy in terms of influencing people from the designated groups under the act is to make contact with opinion leaders. That really means community leaders within the respective communities.

So the aboriginal leaders forum consists of tribal chiefs from first nations, Innu, Métis, and also elders from those communities. We meet with them on a quarterly basis and have various staff representing recruiting, career management, and personnel policy to address issues they bring to us. We solicit their support in getting the message out to them that there are opportunities for their young people in the Canadian Forces.

We have similar kinds of programs with visible minority groups, but not to the same extent. In general, however, I think our best tool, if I can put it that way, is to show the diverse face of the Canadian Forces to the Canadian population. So you'll see in all the publicity materials that those members who are representatives of those groups and who are proud of being members of the forces are our best representatives and our best spokespersons.

We put a lot of emphasis on that, and we've also made sure that our internal policies accommodate things like cultural differences, religious practices, and dress requirements. We try to make them as welcome as possible without compromising any operational capabilities.

[MGen W. Semianiw]

To get back to your question--it's a great question--here's what we did at RMC. Last year we opened up a program called the ALOY program. That allows 25 aboriginal youths to come into RMC, not to be at RMC to do university but to get prepped for university if they need additional training.

So recognizing the fact that there might be a culture shock, that some might need some additional education and training, we began that last year. It was a huge success. We have aboriginal leaders in Kingston at RMC to assist us throughout the process. Now we're seeing that some of them want to stay on at RMC to get a university degree, because they now have that baseline to move ahead into university.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

I know my time is up, but I'll ask one quick question: are you tracking the retention rate of these groups?

[Karol Wenek]

Yes, we are, and they're no different from the rates in the rest of the Canadian Forces. I think that's an indicator of our success.

[Anita Neville, Liberal, Winnipeg South Centre, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Ms. Neville.

Now we'll give the floor to Mrs. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and through you, thank you to our witnesses.

First of all, I wish to thank General Semianiw for providing the opportunity to see first-hand how our joint personnel support units are functioning. Just to follow through and ensure that everything I heard that day was as good as it sounded, on Remembrance Day I had the opportunity to speak to some of our soldiers who had been very gravely wounded and were missing more than one limb. They confirmed that upon arrival in Ottawa, a support worker from the JPSU was there to help them from the outset. Their goal is not only to get better, but they also expect to be deployable. Thanks to our wonderful care, that may be a possibility.

I'd like to talk about one thing we saw that day.

Often there are positions that cannot be filled by military personnel; for example, there are some clerk positions that are filled by civilian employees instead. I want to give you a brief account of why I want to know the answer to this question. I'm looking for the number of positions that have been replaced with civilian employees over the last five years. In Ontario the situation for the army is that the civilian population of employees seems to have grown quickly, whereas in reality some of this growth may be from the substitution of civilian employees for military employees.

What we're seeing at the Petawawa base, for example, is that because you want to keep the number of new hires flat, the tradespeople who are civilian employees are being let go, and that really has an impact on the welfare of our troops. You know that infrastructure predating World War II costs a whole lot for repair emergencies and preventative maintenance, and it costs more to hire a contractor than a regular employee.

Do you know the answer to that?

[MGen W. Semianiw]

We don't have the answer to that question here, but we'll get it for you. The issue of Petawawa is probably a question you need to pose to the commander of the army, but we can give you the Canadian Forces' overall view.

If I could elaborate, the view within the department is that Canadian Forces is first of all a defence team. It's not just about men and women in uniform; it's also all about public servants and non-public employees who actually make up the defence team. In many cases the question of what is best suited for what particular job has to be asked.

I need to come back to one of the comments you made up front. Remember, as Canadians, you expect men and women in uniform to be deployable and to be employable when they're deployed. Clearly it doesn't matter what job you have in the Canadian Forces; Canadians should expect me, Commodore MacKeigan, and, in the past, Karol to be able to go anywhere the Government of Canada asks us to go. This becomes part of that challenge.

Clearly we'll come to you with the details to answer your questions specifically, but it is a defence team made up of regular reserve, full-time and part-time, and civilian personnel.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

The next subject has to do with something we touched on last time. It pertains to retention, more or less. It's the ability of the families to access health care.

You described a project in Trenton. We had done something similar in Petawawa, but we just can't get the doctors to stay. There was really good collaborative effort between the town of Petawawa and the military, but due to the shortage of doctors... Ontario rations its doctors by limiting the number of residencies.

My question to you is this: does the Calian group that provides doctors to the military require the doctors to be licensed in one of the provinces?

[MGen W. Semianiw]

The short answer is, yes, they do. Actually, they ensure that those licences are maintained throughout, and they do have to be licensed.

The challenge of finding not only a doctor but a dentist for military families is an issue we're looking at right now. There is a lot of focus and a lot of work being done on looking at our family program in six areas. The first is what happens when men and women in uniform go away and leave their families at home. The second is child care. Child care is the number one issue for men and women in uniform and their families. We are looking at what we're doing in that area. Third is the issue of health care and finding a doctor; then there is spousal employment, and finally housing. We're looking at that right now.

I'd be more than happy to come back, probably next April or May, to tell you the results of that work, but it is a problem, you're right; it's a challenge.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much. Merci beaucoup.

We'll give the floor to Monsieur Bachand.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome the general and the admiral. I know that an admiral should never be called a general. I have been told it is not recommended. I congratulate you for what you are doing. You are really trying to make sure that things operate smoothly.

First, General, if you get more information about new developments on the armoury issue raised by Mr. Paillé, would you be kind enough to send it to us? It is very important for us. As for the 30-day layoffs, we understand that we will be able to question the vice-chief of defence staff when he appears before us.

I have the bad habit of looking at documents in both official languages. Sometimes, I am extremely surprised. However, this is the first time that I am really struck by the figures in official documents. Let me compare the French and English versions of Exhibit H. I know that Quebecers are distinct but I did not expect to see distinct figures in the French and English versions of the documents. The figures in the French version are completely different than those in the English version. I do not understand. For example, for sonar operators, I see that the proportion of offers is 38% in French but 84% in English. Most of the figures in those documents are different in the two versions. Can you explain that? There must be a mistake.

If I may, General, I will ask my two other questions immediately before letting you answer. As far as double-dipping is concerned, we have seen some reports in newspapers. It is very costly for taxpayers. I suppose it is also very costly for the department as far as its budget is concerned. Some high-ranking individuals leave the Forces and are then re-hired the next day. In some cases, they can easily double their compensation. I would like to know what is the departmental policy on double–dipping.

Finally, I would like to have more information about your recruitment policy. I know that this is not your area of expertise and that it may be more the purview of the general responsible for cadets. I know that the Brits strongly hope that young people involved in their Cadet Program will eventually join the armed forces, whereas the Canadian policy is not the same. It is more a kind of social group, even though it is significant. I meet with them regularly.

Is anyone in the Department looking at changing the Cadet policy in order to try and get some of them interested in a career in the armed forces?

[Mgén W. Semianiw]

First, I apologize about the figures, I am responsible. I know that there is a difference between the two versions but we will send you the right figures.

It's my fault. That rests with me. I apologize, and I will ensure the right ones actually get back to you.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

You don't know yet if the English or the French one is—