National Defence Committee on March 2nd, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Time flies when you're getting good quality answers.

Mr. Bachand.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to come back to the ADATS, because I did not hear your answer properly. Usually, with major events like these, both the U.S. and Canada prepare missiles to protect against low-altitude attacks.

You must be familiar with the ADATS, manufactured by Rheinmetall Canada, a company located in my riding. At the time, it was manufactured under a military contract. When important, high-level meetings like the G8 summit are held in Canada, ADATS are in place.

Does that come under NORAD jurisdiction, or can the federal government decide whether to deploy ADATS? Will the system be in place in Vancouver?

[VAdm D. McFadden]

Sir, Commander NORAD is responsible for aerospace surveillance control and defence; therefore, how that defence will be effected is Commander NORAD's recommendation to the Chief of Defence Staff. The Chief of Defence Staff is the individual charged to say these are the assets that should go in place to be able to achieve that.

I would caution against drawing the direct connection that we've used it before and therefore it should always be used. Understand that the environment in Vancouver is that of a major urban, built-up area. It's a much more complicated environment in which to use a ground-based missile system than a less built-up area. It's not simply a question of the ability to prevent what has been identified as a threat from proceeding to its target, but that there will be consequences of an engagement. Therefore, the Commander NORAD will make his recommendations to the Chief of Defence Staff as to how he intends to ensure that level of security.

I would say that the conversation now becomes, as in all things, more complicated, in that we're not just talking potentially about an air defence mission—in other words, an armed attack upon Canada—but the employment of NORAD in support of an RCMP requirement to prevent the commission of a crime. A small aircraft operating in a certain way could be assessed by the RCMP as the commission of a crime. The mechanisms by which force is brought to bear are some of the things we're working through at the moment.

As for your specific question on how that kinetic effect occurs, I couldn't comment upon, sir, apart from saying that we are exercising it, and I do not have concerns that the kinetic effect can be brought to bear.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Agreed.

Now, I have two brief questions on the integrated security unit. Earlier, you said that it comprised 360 people. Does it include people from the FBI or the Department of Homeland Security, or does it include only Canadians?

[VAdm D. McFadden]

I couldn't answer whether there are members of the FBI or Department of Homeland Security. I don't know, and I think it would be an appropriate answer to come from the RCMP. We will ensure from a military perspective that we have people in place to be able to coordinate a response, should a combined response be required.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

You also mentioned the National Response Team. Is there a difference between the integrated security unit and the National Response Team? Are those two different entities?

[VAdm D. McFadden]

No, sir, the national response team is very specifically intended to respond to a chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear threat. So it is a team that exists and will exist before, during, and after the Olympics. The team is in place to be able to respond to that specific type of threat. The integrated security unit is an operation centre that stands up to control operations for the duration of the Olympic and Paralympic games.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

In that case, the order to the National Response Team to respond would come from the RCMP.

[VAdm D. McFadden]

The RCMP lead in that team. They are the ones responsible for bringing the capabilities together. The employment of the team, obviously, is at the recommendation of the RCMP, which decides what's required.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Perfect. I have no further questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to come back to the question I asked you earlier around the use of American troops or American naval vessels in Canada. You did reply that there is no circumstance for which you would foresee American troops in Canada, but could you reply on the use of American naval vessels? Do the plans include the use of American naval vessels in Canadian waters?

[VAdm D. McFadden]

Sir, I suppose I'd refer you to the complicated maritime environment that exists on the west coast. A ferry leaving Tsawwassen crosses the border twice to get to Vancouver Island. So we are undeniably discussing with the United States what is the most effective surveillance process to put in place to allow maritime surveillance to be effectively done. That means we have already engaged with the United States in the maritime field to ensure we are coordinating the assignment of the United States forces to their Pacific northwest, which will occur, and the assignment of Canadian maritime forces to our west coast, which will occur.

They will both be operating in the approaches to Vancouver. The approaches to Vancouver are also the approaches to Puget Sound.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

So in that sense you see it as a single operational unit, which would mean American naval vessels in Canadian waters and potentially Canadian naval vessels in American waters?

[VAdm D. McFadden]

No, sir. I think we are a way off from being a single operational unit, but there will be American maritime forces assigned and Canadian maritime forces assigned, and there will be collaboration between them to ensure that we have ongoing effective communications, that we understand what each is doing.

I would hope that as we progress with plans for how we employ forces in the maritime environment, we will continue to progress in the ability for them to operate in a more coherent fashion than they're doing at the moment. We do not yet have that in place. That is an element of the discussions that are ongoing, but that's separate. The Olympics certainly are a forcing function to try to move those quickly, but collaboration within the maritime environment is a separate topic, whether the Olympics are happening or not.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Okay. So what I understand then--and I don't want to put words in your mouth--is that you're saying it is a possibility, but at this point the operational plans haven't been fully developed in order for you to respond definitely on that.

[VAdm D. McFadden]

It is a possibility. In fact, I would hope that someday we are able to do more effective combined maritime operations in support of security requirements. I'll give you an example of where that's happening today--on the Great Lakes. We have United States Coast Guard and RCMP operating collaboratively on the Great Lakes. There is no reason why, in a similarly complicated space such as exists on the west coast, we could not reach discussions to allow us to do that as effectively there as on the Great Lakes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

My next question is around the integrated security unit. You indicated that there will be an American military presence within the ISU.

[VAdm D. McFadden]

No. It will be within Joint Task Force Games. The ISU is a very specific centre, so were we to have military liaison officers, they would be assigned to the joint task force that exists, and they are connected.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Can you give us a sense of how many representatives would be part of it?

[VAdm D. McFadden]

I was off on my 200 to 360, so I'm a little nervous on that now. I'm talking about a dozen, at the very outside. We're talking about officers who are intended to maintain connections with their home units so that coordination can happen very rapidly--maintain communications, understand structure. I'm not talking about the deployment of forces; they're liaison officers.

[Peter Julian, NDP, Burnaby—New Westminster, BC]

Okay.

I'll ask three more questions and just put them out. You can answer them briefly or in more depth if you prefer.

Will Exercise Gold involve American forces?

Secondly, around the number of military camps that would be set up in the Lower Mainland, the numbers have ranged from five to six. If you could clarify that, I think it would be helpful for the committee.

Finally, you may not be able to answer this, but there has been some concern about the dismantling of the security apparatus after the games. The privacy commissioners, both for British Columbia and for Canada, have raised concerns around that. Are you aware of any budget for the dismantling of the security apparatus that is being put into place for the Olympic games?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

Mr. Julian, you only have six seconds left.

You've received the questions. Could you supply the answers to the committee, the ones you can answer?

Would that be all right, Mr. Julian? We're out of time in this slot.

[VAdm D. McFadden]

I can provide answers to you later.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Casson]

If you would, please.