National Defence Committee on March 23rd, 2009

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

Thank you for that clarification.

The Arctic has been a big topic of concern in Canada recently, and not just because of this flight issue, but also because of the issue of the Northwest Passage and submarines. I think it's a much more critical component of our own Arctic sovereignty than are the trainer flights that might approach our own airspace, so I want to ask you some specific questions. If you don't have time to respond to them, I'd really appreciate it if you would share your responses with this committee later.

Can you state the position of the Russian Federation on the legal status of the northern sea route and the Northwest Passage? Does your government agree that they are Canadian internal waters? Do Russian submarines undertake missions in the Northwest Passage? Are similar processes of notification in place before Russian submarines undertake a mission in the Canadian Arctic? Finally, what steps are undertaken to ensure that there are no collisions or accidents involving Russian or Canadian submarines or any other vessels that might be in Arctic waters?

Thank you.

[Dmitry Trofimov]

Okay. That's quite a lot, I should admit.

[Dawn Black, NDP, New Westminster—Coquitlam, BC]

No, I understand if you want to share the answers through another method with the committee later, but whatever you can answer would be appreciated.

[Dmitry Trofimov]

Yes, no doubt. With regard to the Arctic, I have several general remarks.

Point number one is that nowadays we do have regular consultations between our two countries. This year there has already been one round of consultations over in Moscow. The second round will be sometime in spring, closer to summer, here in Ottawa, between two departments of foreign affairs.

There was quite an extensive exchange of experts and representative of the departments of foreign affairs last year. The basis for all those consultations and exchanges was the general attitude of two sides, which is very simple. There are international law provisions. There is the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, and both Canada and the Russian Federation will strictly adhere to the provisions of the international law. We might from time to time agree to disagree, but that is a solid base for both countries.

Point number two, there is a very—

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

You won't have enough time for that. I must give the floor to Mr. Hawn.

[Dmitry Trofimov]

I'm sorry. Sure.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Trofimov, for being here. I'll try to be brief.

In August 2007, then President Putin stated that air patrols would resume, signaling they would become more frequent. He also stated, quite correctly, that international law does not stipulate obligatory norms for states to inform other states about the flights above the international waters bordering upon their territory.

There are two kinds of airspace, international airspace and national airspace. There's also a third kind. We have, as you do, what we call air defence identification zones, where aircraft operating in those zones are matters of interest to our particular countries. In 2007-08 there were 30 penetrations of air defence identification zones in Canada and the U.S. There were 28 NORAD intercepts of those penetrations, eight of which were conducted by Canadians. On only three of those cases was there notification given. So I would question a little bit the assertion that notification was given. And this is from NORAD documents.

Our interests in the Arctic are quite clearly, I think, economic, environmental, and security/sovereignty. Recently Vice-Admiral Oleg Burtsev of the Russian Federation stated that the Russian Federation was prepared to use submarines to enforce what they saw as Russian sovereignty in the Arctic. Could you elaborate on Admiral's Burtsev's statement?

[Dmitry Trofimov]

Once again, there are several aspects.

First, you've mentioned the air defence identification zones used by both the States and Canada. These are also used by other countries, such as Australia, Japan, and Iceland. According to international law, those are self-proclaimed zones that are not in strict conformity with the existing international law.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I'm not questioning your right to fly in that airspace. You have a right to fly in that airspace. Could you comment on Admiral Burtsev's comments, please?

[Dmitry Trofimov]

You know, when it comes to aircraft or submarines, there is one important thing: they should fly and swim. Otherwise they will simply kick the bucket.

In my answer to that particular remark, I can give you an illustration. Four years ago, data was published by the IISS publication The Military Balance with regard to so-called flying hours. The average hours were as follows for air forces: 275 for the U.S., 210 for the Canadians, 207 for the British, and 25 for the Russians.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

And submarines?

[Dmitry Trofimov]

With regard to submarines, we do need reliability. We do need the submarines to be operationally efficient. Why? I can cite a very recent incident. It took place on February 4. As a matter of fact, it involved none of the Russian submarines. It was a collision between a British submarine and a French nuclear submarine, both armed. Well, actually, the rough assessment was that they had approximately one-third of the two countries' nuclear potential on board. It was within a hair's breadth of unprecedented catastrophe--

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Sir, that's interesting, but what does that have to do with Russia's intent, or not intent, to use submarines to enforce Arctic sovereignty as the Russians see it?

[Dmitry Trofimov]

Let me say a very simple thing: whatever Russia is doing or will do in the Arctic, it will be in strict adherence to international law--full stop. Nothing will be done, or might be done, but for that.

The positions of our two countries are pretty much the same. We are in the same boat. We have cooperation in the Arctic, and I mean real cooperation, when it comes to the Arctic region. Our search and rescue in the Arctic, which is, as a matter of fact, a trilateral endeavour with the United States, sets quite an example of what is really going on.

With regard to the statement you mentioned, there are lots of statements made on both sides, but there is a reality here. In reality, there is cooperation that is mutually beneficial. There is a long chain of examples of this mutually beneficial cooperation in the Arctic. Naturally, we will not under any circumstances act against the provisions of the international law; that is for sure.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

That's good.

Before I pass to my colleague Ms. Gallant for a quick question, we were talking about quotations. I'll give you one from Ronald Reagan--I mean this in a friendly way--and that is “Trust, but verify”. That's what we both would be interested in.

I'll turn it over to Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you again for accepting our invitation to testify at this committee and for the work and cooperation your country is participating in on the war on terrorism.

My question has to do with point number two. You used the word “reciprocity” a couple of times in your testimony. With respect to reciprocity--and we're discussing the incursion of Bears into our airspace today--are you stating that Canadian fighter jets are invading Russian airspace?

[Dmitry Trofimov]

Thank you.

I should respectfully beg to disagree, because we are not discussing the incursion of the Russian aircraft into the Canadian national airspace. It did not happen, and none of the official representatives of the three countries have ever mentioned these particular facts. We're talking about flights in the international airspace, which did happen in the vicinity of the national airspace of the respective countries.

My remark about the reciprocity was very simple: Canadian jets or American jets or British jets or NATO jets, generally speaking, are flying in the same vicinity of the Russian national airspace and likewise not interfering in it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you, Mr. Trofimov.

Mr. Coderre, you have the floor.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I am impressed, Mr. Trofimov. If you want to play politics the Canadian way, our Parliament has what we call a filibuster. You are asked a question, you talk for seven minutes and the time expires. It works like a charm. My compliments to you.

I would like to go back to two extremely serious questions. A lot of Canadians are listening to us today.

First, does Russia recognize Canadian sovereignty in the Arctic? I want a simple answer. Yes or no. I will have to interrupt you if you are not quick enough.

[Dmitry Trofimov]

I have two sentences. First, yes. Second, there are mapping procedures ongoing. Russia already did it in 2007, and Canada will be over with the same process by 2013. And actually, all the papers will be for the international commission to observe. That's all.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Okay, so you told me that you recognize Canadian sovereignty in the Arctic.

[Dmitry Trofimov]

No doubt.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Question number two, when you send those submarines--and I'm not referring to The Hunt for Red October here--do you notify, yes or no, Canadian authorities when you're going near the border? You said no notification regarding the air; now we're talking about submarines. Do we have notification when you send those subs nearby?

[Dmitry Trofimov]

Two things once again. Actually, I'm 45, which means I'm not young enough to know everything.

Point number two, there are pretty similar international regulations--naturally, different conventions, different treaties--that work very similarly.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

You do not want to answer or you do not know. That is fine.

Here is my other question. After the Department of Defence reacted to the aircraft, to the bombers, the Prime Minister of Canada, whose role is to protect the integrity of, and our sovereignty over, the territory, said that there have been more and more aggressive incursions by Russian authorities.

Can you comment on that? You can take two minutes, it is worth the time.