National Defence Committee on Oct. 19th, 2010

[Dan Ross]

Yes, sir. I run the materiel group. I would have known if we had detailed plans to run a competition, but we had to do our due diligence in terms of cost, operational performance, the total cost of ownership, and, obviously, with Industry Canada, the industrial implications. But if it had turned out that we had serious concerns about operational performance or cost or other things, it would have been necessary to seriously consider a competition. We spent a lot of time on that particular question.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

With respect to the price of the F-35, $70 million, $75 million is a lot of money. Back in 1980 we paid, per airframe, $16,090,000 per CF-18. Can you do a price comparison of those in then-year dollars and 2015 or 2016 dollars that we're talking about?

[Dan Ross]

My understanding, sir, is that in 2016 dollars, our F-18s would have cost $62 million. In 2016 dollars we expect an average price of about $72 million or $73 million for an F-35.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

And the difference in capability between an F-18 and an F-35?

[Dan Ross]

It's astonishing. They're not even in the same league.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

When we're talking about stealth, is it fair to say that stealth is also a deterrent? If you know that your adversary has stealth capabilities, is that going to make an enemy behave differently, potentially?

[Dan Ross]

Yes, sir, absolutely. I think potential adversaries...whether it's deployed internationally or continentally or in defence of Canada, when they know that Canada operates that capability and that air power is there and they don't know where it is, they don't know what it's going to do...they could be engaged and never know they'd been engaged until the last second. I think that is a significant issue in terms of deterrence. It certainly would be if I were on the other side.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Me too.

In terms of the industrial participation plan you talked about, is it possible to table some of those things for the committee without violating agreements?

[Dan Ross]

Yes, sir. They're unclassified. They are industrial plans signed by Industry Canada with the three industrial groups.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Just to go back to re-emphasize what you said about the due diligence that has gone on, we did evaluate the F-35 against airplanes like the Super Hornet, the Eurofighter, the Gryphon?

[Dan Ross]

Yes, sir.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

And came to the obvious conclusion that all those other countries came to, that it was what was required.

Here's a philosophical question, I guess. We pay people like you and Mr. Slack and Colonel Burt to acquire the expertise to study complex questions in great detail at highly classified levels over a period of years, and then when you come and give advice, there's a segment of folks who don't think we should listen to you, that we should listen to people who have been removed from the process for five years, who don't have the information that you have, who maybe make aircraft comparisons based on flying a Mirage III, which is a third-generation airplane.

Is that a little frustrating?

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Democracy is always frustrating, Laurie.

[Dan Ross]

My job is to get the best capability within the allocated budget in a Canada First defence strategy. We work pretty hard at being objective and factual. My job here today is to be able to provide factual information and let the members make their own decision.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Is it fair to say--we're talking about the next-generation fighter capability for the next 30 or 40 years, or whatever--from your knowledge of industry, which you obviously have, that this is also the next generation of industrial capability and it's the next 30 or 40 years, but it's putting us on the ground floor of whatever comes next, that if we're not in at this stage, we're going to miss the stages beyond that?

[Dan Ross]

Yes, sir. It is interesting that Mr. Lajeunesse and Mr. Myers recently wrote to members representing the Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters Association and the Aerospace Industries Association. It was interesting. One paragraph says:

By contrast, the JSF project allows Canadian suppliers to develop state-of-the-art technologies as part of the global supply chains of Lockheed Martin and other multinational aerospace contractors. Unlike the traditional IRB model, these companies will not be confined to opportunities for development, maintenance, repair or modification of our 65 aircraft; they will be able to compete for a variety of contracts for a global fleet of between three to five thousand aircraft.

Then it goes on to talk about the knowledge transfer of high technology that leverages their opportunities in other fleets and other contracts worldwide. I think he makes a very good point. It's not on my watch; obviously it's an Industry Canada issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ross.

I'll give the floor to Mr. Regan.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ross, for coming today.

Am I wrong in my understanding that no F-35 has been built yet? None is flying. Is that correct, or am I wrong about that?

[Dan Ross]

That's wrong, sir.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

How many are flying now? Can you tell me that?

[Dan Ross]

A fairly large number. They're starting up their first operational squadron next year.

Nineteen are flying, sir.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

Thank you very much. I appreciate being educated on that point.

We've recently received a two-page list of high-level, mandatory capabilities for the next aircraft to replace the CF-18, and I have some questions regarding this list. When was this list written, the list we received in the last few days?

[Dan Ross]

The statement of requirement for the next-generation fighter has been worked on over the past year. Public Works and Government Services had that in a final form last spring, because we had to consult with them on the question of whether or not to proceed under the PMOU or do a competition.

[Geoff Regan, Liberal, Halifax West, NS]

So those high-level requirements were not given to the JSF program in 2001?

[Dan Ross]

No.