Evidence of meeting #33 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Timothy I. Page  President, Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Good afternoon everyone, and welcome to this sitting of the Standing Committee on National Defence.

This is meeting number 33.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the orders of the day, the committee will continue its study of the next generation of fighter aircraft.

We have with us two witnesses from the Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries. We have Timothy Page, President, and Janet Thorsteinson.

Thank you for being with us.

You have 10 minutes to make your presentation. After that, members of the committee will be able to ask you questions. The floor is yours.

3:30 p.m.

Timothy I. Page President, Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon everyone. I will be giving my presentation in English, but we will be able, I hope, to answer your questions in both languages.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this afternoon and for your interest in hearing CADSI's views on the F-35 program, a subject of keen interest to Canadians and to our 860 member companies.

We fully appreciate the political environment within which the program is being discussed. As you know, CADSI is not a partisan organization, and as a not-for-profit association, we do not have a commercial interest in this or any other defence program. You might well appreciate that because of the depth and breadth of our membership, we do not take a specific position on any given defence procurement, which is why you have not seen us in the media on F-35, nor are you likely to. Furthermore, we don't comment on defence requirements, as we firmly believe that is the prerogative of the federal government.

With that said, in general we believe that defining a requirement should not be used as an opportunity to define a specific platform. We believe that procurement strategies should be chosen in part so as to optimize Canadian industrial participation at the R and D, production, and sustainment phases of a project.

As you may remember from our appearance before you on April 29 this year, we have called on the government to create and implement a defence industrial strategy in the context of general reforms to defence procurement in Canada. If such a strategy existed, we believe questions surrounding the economic benefits derived from any specific procurement, including the F-35, would be easier to answer and evaluate from the perspective of a return on investment for taxpayers.

What can we say about the F-35? First, in principle, we like the project model being used for the F-35 because it includes characteristics akin to a defence industrial strategy. By that I mean cooperation between the defence industry and the Canadian government from the concept phase of a defence program; the commitment and targeting of government-supported industrial R and D from the earliest stage; articulating and promoting domestic industrial policies where Canada can win business at the production phase of a program, including defence electronics; procuring the right to use and disclose intellectual property to benefit domestic industries' involvement at both the production and sustainment phases; and enhancing Canadian access to global supply chains from development through production and sustainment. We believe those characteristics, akin to a defence industrial strategy, are present in the F-35 project.

Second, participating in the development of capital defence programs from the ground up provides Canadian industry with the time horizon to invest in plant, process, R and D, and human resources, and to find partners to enable it to compete successfully when programs ultimately come to market. We believe it also creates an important window of opportunity for government to act strategically to nurture and develop Canada's defence industrial base in areas of sovereign, security, and national economic interest through its participation in such programs.

Third, we support a similar procurement approach to other priorities outlined in the Canada First defence strategy, including but not limited to naval and coast guard requirements. We encourage the government to work expeditiously to move the national shipbuilding procurement strategy forward to the point where construction on these new vessels can begin in the shortest timeframe possible, in collaboration with Canada's marine and shipbuilding industries.

Fourth, there are other project models that can also effectively obtain needed military equipment and build and sustain industrial capability and capacity in Canada's defence industrial base. Regardless of the project model chosen--build, or COTS and MOTS, with strategic industrial and regional benefits--the message we wish to convey is that a collaborative relationship between the defence industry and government, developed from the earliest stages of defining a defence requirement for Canada and conducted in the context of a defence industrial strategy, will improve Canadian industry success in defence procurements at home and abroad and enhance its ability to spin off capability into the commercial marketplace, both domestically and internationally. We believe this is good news for the Canadian Forces and good news for Canadian workers in the defence and security sector of the economy.

Fifth, in the context of the recent Auditor General's report on defence procurements, we note how important program and management cost controls around defence spending are in general, and will be into the future, for ensuring that the Canada First defence strategy can be fully met and implemented on time and to budget, including a fully funded national shipbuilding procurement strategy. Government's recommitment to fully fund its planned investments in land vehicles and soldier systems and naval and coast guard vessels would be an important sign for those within our membership who are concerned that the next-generation fighter program might siphon funds from programs they are investing in.

Sixth, to date, the government reports on early contract returns on the F-35 project would appear to show that Canada has done as well as or better than other partner countries in winning business. If this trend continues, participating companies will do well. We would ask the government to provide regular updates on the continuing progress of Canadian industrial participation in the F-35 project.

Finally, there remain a number of issues around this project, which, when addressed in the fullness of time, will better define the scope of Canadian industrial involvement in the project and the economic benefits that can be realized for Canadian workers. Those issues include the articulation and execution of a domestic industrial plan for the lucrative sustainment phase; how effective the Canadian government can be working with domestic industry to capitalize on access to and use of the intellectual property Canada has purchased within the program; the extent to which Canadian companies and the government can capitalize on additional high-value defence electronics business from the supply chain opportunities that remain to be decided for F-35 production; and how many high-value jobs are ultimately going to be created and sustained within the Canadian economy.

Mr. Chairman, in our view, it is somewhat too early to tell if the model will ultimately work to Canada's benefit. We do not know about job growth or prospects, in part because Industry Canada doesn't keep job data. We don't know contract terms because of commercial confidentiality. And we don't know about contract value, because, in short, we don't know how many planes will ultimately be built and purchased.

That said, CADSI lends its continuing support to ensure that when the day comes and Canada is ready to formally make a procurement request of the program office in Washington to address its next-generation fighter needs, Canadians will know much more than they do today about the extent and quality of economic activity that will be generated over the long term for Canada's defence industry and workers, both at the production and sustainment phases of this program.

Mr. Chairman, CADSI's 860 members and their 90,000 knowledge-based workers remind this committee of what we said in our military procurement report of December 2009, which was that defence procurement decisions should be made in the context of a defence industrial strategy. With a strategy in place that is aligned with the Canada First defence strategy and international market opportunities, industry is better able to prepare for success, and Canadians are better able to judge the domestic economic return on investment from defence spending.

Thank you. We will now answer any questions you have.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you, Mr. Page.

Mr. Wilfert, you have the floor.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And thank you both for coming.

Mr. Page, you raised a number of very good questions. I guess the issue of whether this model will work to Canada's benefit is the one we all are asking. Certainly our party believes strongly in a vibrant aerospace industry, and we support a next-generation aircraft. The question is whether this is the aircraft, based on a sole-source contract and lack of competition, and whether we are getting value for dollars. Those are the issues we have, and I'm sure those are concerns to your members.

Again, central to it is the question you ask: will the model work for Canada's benefit? I guess I would ask what criteria you look at in order to evaluate that type of model, first of all, when you're working with your members.

3:40 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries

Timothy I. Page

Thank you for the questions.

Through you, Mr. Chairman, I outlined in our introductory remarks the characteristics that we deem in this model to be applicable to a defence industrial strategy. Those included early engagement between industry and government, and it would appear that that commitment and that undertaking have been met on F-35.

The commitment and targeting of government-supported industrial R and D from the earliest stages--we understand that the government has purchased intellectual property that it has the right to use and disclose, both at the production and at the sustainment phases of this program. We've suggested that a measure of an industrial strategy would be articulating and promoting domestic industrial priorities within a given program, and we believe that has also been the case...and the ability for Canadian companies to access the global supply chain of a major OEM. Again, this program is an opportunity for Canadian companies to do that.

So when we said it's too early to judge whether the model will work, we meant that. There have been opportunities that the government has reported have been earned by Canadian companies. We have enormous confidence in the capabilities and the competitiveness of Canadian industry, and there are at least a couple of years ahead of us to see exactly how much work, at the end of the day, Canadian industry will be able to earn from this program.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Page, early this year CADSI released a report on military procurement and the defence industrial policy that would align CFDS procurement priorities with domestic economic needs and to ensure that we maintain industrial capacity required to remain defensively autonomous. The question I have is, to the best of your knowledge--through you, Mr. Chairman--are there currently any government programs or offices responsible for monitoring the direct impact that individual procurements have on Canadian job creation?

3:40 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries

Timothy I. Page

To the best of our knowledge, the organization that is responsible for the industrial and regional benefits program, namely Industry Canada--I remind you that F-35 is not an IRB program--would be the place that one would logically look to track the return on investment, if you like. It is our understanding that Industry Canada is not in the business of tracking jobs against contract performance.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Are there any government programs or offices capable of directly measuring the industrial benefits for committing to purchase the new fleet of F-35 jets?

3:40 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries

Timothy I. Page

Excuse me, sir. I think that clearly fits within Industry Canada's purview.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

In terms of the competition we have, worst-case scenario, if Canadian industry somehow got completely cut out of the global supply chain because they simply got outbid by foreign competitors, clearly that would have a devastating cost to the Canadian aerospace and defence industry, would it not?

3:40 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries

Timothy I. Page

I'm not in a position to comment on hypothetical questions, sir. I can say that we have great confidence in the ability of Canadian industry to compete successfully for business, both at the production and at the sustainment phase. I would add, if I may, that there is still work to be done in defining the industrial plan around sustainment.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

But again, without any guarantees upfront, as normally has been the case, that could happen.

3:40 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries

Timothy I. Page

I hear your word “guarantee”. I guess from the business community, business is used to earning business and looking for a timeframe within which to be able to properly prepare for opportunities when they come to the market. I think the F-35 model is a model that has afforded Canadian industry that timeframe to prepare.

The question now is whether or not the Canadian industry will be able to capitalize, in collaboration with the Canadian government, on all of the opportunities that are available, both at the production phase and, equally importantly, at the sustainment phase.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Through you, Mr. Chairman, we clearly are going to be in stiff competition, obviously, with other JSF partners who have full faith in their industries. Other countries are obviously going to be supporting their industries, yet what reason is there to believe that foreign governments would, in your view, pick Canadian contractors over their own domestic industries, even if Canada itself heavily favours its own?

3:45 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries

Timothy I. Page

I guess I don't have very many points of reference for you, sir, other than to suggest that our understanding from government data issued to date is that on an investment of about $168 million, Canadian industry has been able to earn about $350 million in contract value, and we are seen with some envy amongst partner countries for having done as well as we have to date on the program.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

In the March report, one of the things that struck me was when it talked about ensuring that the procurement process, in its operating culture, leads to optimal economic return and effective program delivery.

In that section you specifically call for consistency and transparency in the procurement process. Do you feel that has been fulfilled to date with the F-35?

3:45 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries

Timothy I. Page

I'm interested in understanding, through the government, where and when Canadian companies have been able to earn business from the F-35 program. I think there's a good story to be told there, and we need to get that data so that Canadians and organizations like ours can properly judge, in the fullness of time, just how well Canadian industry has been able to do on this program.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

That's it.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Okay. Thank you very much.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you.

Now I will give the floor to Monsieur Bouchard.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Page. Thank you for appearing before the committee this afternoon.

Good afternoon, Madam.

I read your report on military procurement, Mr. Page. I agree with you on the importance of adopting an effective and efficient policy regarding the procurement of military equipment. It is especially important to improve the procurement process to avoid making too many blunders.

Had there been a real procurement policy in place, do you think we could have avoided a number of foul-ups in the past few years?

3:45 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries

Timothy I. Page

We are convinced that with the government's commitment to spend $240 billion through the Canada First defence strategy over the next 20 years, the best way to plan for and measure an economic return on that investment is through the creation of a defence industrial strategy.

I thank you for your commitment to such a strategy, and I would be happy to work with you and other members of this committee to see how we might be able to raise the awareness and support of the government for this idea.

3:45 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you.

Do you find it inappropriate that some opposition parties are threatening to cancel the F-35 aircraft contract? I would like to hear your thoughts on that.

3:45 p.m.

President, Canadian Association of Defence and Security Industries

Timothy I. Page

Sir, with respect, I hear that as a political question. My job here today is to try to convince you and your colleagues of the value of a defence industrial strategy in the context of defence procurement, outline that we believe the F-35 program includes characteristics that are akin to such a strategy, and encourage you as a committee to measure the success of this model in terms of wealth creation and jobs created in this country.

It would be inappropriate for me to comment on the political question you've asked.

3:50 p.m.

Bloc

Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you.

We are talking about F-35s, and I can see you like that type of aircraft. You talked about the importance of acquiring F-35s under a defence strategy and developing a domestic industrial base. That is what I understood from your remarks, but correct me if I am wrong.

Do you not think that the government should take a stronger stand by ensuring that the construction process generates more economic spinoffs for the aerospace industry and that Canada gets a fair return? Given that the production of these aircrafts generates economic benefits, obviously, Quebec must receive its fair share. The proportion of jobs this represents is around 55% in Quebec.

Furthermore, do you not think it is important, if not essential, for the government to have a firm contractual agreement in terms of maintenance support? That way, Canada and Quebec would benefit, and the spinoffs for Quebec should be proportional to its economic standing in the aerospace industry. That would guarantee spinoffs for the aerospace industry.

Do you admit that, as we speak, there are no guaranteed economic spinoffs with respect to construction or maintenance, and that that is a problem?