Evidence of meeting #50 for National Defence in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-41.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Colonel  Retired) Michel W. Drapeau (Professor, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa
Ian Holloway  Professor and Dean, Faculty of Law, University of Western Ontario
Jason Gratl  Vice-President, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association
Jean-Marie Dugas  As an Individual
Julie Lalonde-Prudhomme  Procedural Clerk

4:10 p.m.

Col Michel W. Drapeau

I have to turn to our allies in Ireland and Australia. They made it a point in law that a conviction by summary trial does not lead to a record, thank you. In the U.K., Australia, and New Zealand, there is now an appeal process for conviction and sentences in summary trials. Why did this happen in the U.K. to begin with? Because when a challenge was made before the European Court of Human Rights, the summary trial system was found not to be in accord with the convention on human rights in Europe. There is a movement in our common law jurisdiction in all the countries I've named that says we have to change our ways. We have to provide more procedural fairness.

One last example is that in the RCMP you can be convicted of a service offence, and you don't end up with a criminal record either. It's a disciplinary process. It's the same if you are in the public service. Why is it that because it's military in 2011 you have to have a stigma attached to it? We can enforce discipline without having detention, custodial power. That's exactly what Ireland just did. They removed from the commanding officer holding a summary trial the capacity to send someone to detention. That way you don't have to have legal representation, appeal processes, and so on. There's a way to make it more akin to what you would find in civilian labour or a civilian organization of some sort.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

Go ahead.

4:10 p.m.

Professor and Dean, Faculty of Law, University of Western Ontario

Dr. Ian Holloway

This is one of the points on which Colonel Drapeau and I agree. I would say, though, that the devil is always in the details. We can understand why someone--

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

One moment, Mr. Holloway.

Do you have a point of order, Mr. Bachand?

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Is it normal for the Minister of National Defence's press secretary to be handing over, for the second time, some documents to the parliamentary secretary? Could committee members get copies of these same documents? Is this standard procedure?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

[Inaudible—Editor]

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

I'm happy to run off copies.

4:10 p.m.

Bloc

Claude Bachand Bloc Saint-Jean, QC

Is it a love letter or...?

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

I'm serious about this, Claude. I hope you are.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you for your point of order, Mr. Bachand. Let's get back to the business at hand.

Mr. Holloway.

4:10 p.m.

Professor and Dean, Faculty of Law, University of Western Ontario

Dr. Ian Holloway

I agree with Colonel Drapeau when he says that we don't want someone necessarily being able to be sent to prison for a summary offence. What about the old-fashioned punishment where--and again, I'm most familiar with the situation in a warship--the first day in port the sailor gets in a fight in a bar and the captain says you're not going ashore until we leave here? As a lawyer, I can make an argument that that's detention.

4:10 p.m.

NDP

Jack Harris NDP St. John's East, NL

That's fine, but if you make the argument that it's detention and you call that an offence and say you end up with a criminal record.... Even for assault cases, with the pressures and stresses of army life, maybe they should be treated a little separately and perhaps a little bit more leniently in terms of consequences, given the pressures of a wartime situation in which people might get a little out of hand with each other, and so on. I'm not talking about murder here now.

You have to understand. From my point of view, if you're going to say they don't have absolutely, exactly the same rights, but they ought to be treated fairly, maybe that's the way it goes.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Maxime Bernier

Thank you very much, Mr. Harris.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to our witnesses for being here.

Mr. Drapeau, I want to correct something that I think you said earlier with respect to Trépanier. The choice in Trépanier was not summary trial or trial by court martial; it was between a judge alone or a panel.

4:10 p.m.

Col Michel W. Drapeau

That's right. If I said that, I misspoke, and I apologize.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Okay, I just wanted to clarify that.

Mr. Drapeau, a lot of the stuff we're talking about is outside the scope of Bill C-41. It may be a good discussion, but it's outside the scope of the bill we're trying to get moved through here.

Are you aware that two of Canada's most eminent jurists, Chief Justice Dickson and Chief Justice Lamer, reviewed the summary trial system and made recommendations? I think government has followed 85 out of 88 or something like that. Both have endorsed the summary trial system. Do you agree with the chief justices or do you disagree with them?

4:10 p.m.

Col Michel W. Drapeau

I cannot say yes or no. Do I agree with the statement? I agree with what Justice Lamer said in his report. But do not draw from my comment the conclusion that I agree that the summary trial system is not in need of reform. Justice Lamer would have given it only a superficial look in his report. In the Lamer report, there is a requirement to address summary trials in today's world. In my opinion, it does not meet a charter protection that anybody else facing a criminal trial would have to meet in Canada.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

I don't normally know chief justices to be superficial. Do you believe that these two eminent jurists would not have analyzed charter issues before endorsing summary trials? If so, can you comment on the weight that Chief Justices Dickson and Lamer gave in their analysis to such safeguards as the right to an election of trial or court martial, the right to receive legal advice, the role of the assisting officer, and the right to request a review of the findings and sentence of a summary trial. I think they were not superficial.

4:15 p.m.

Col Michel W. Drapeau

I don't tend to skirt a question, but this one I will. I don't have Justice Lamer's exact wording, which you obviously have before you, to see whether or not this is the interpretation one can give to it. I have never questioned Justice Lamer, because I have too much respect for him. I have argued that his recommendations should be applied, including the creation of a permanent military court. But on the issue of summary trials, I'm going above and beyond what the Lamer report said. I'm saying it doesn't meet the test in today's world.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

Do you believe, Mr. Drapeau, that Canadian soldiers should have the right to publicly criticize the Prime Minister or government policy or the right to refuse duty that someone might find distasteful or hazardous, even on the battlefield?

4:15 p.m.

Col Michel W. Drapeau

I never have and never will. Don't shake your head. I've served for 34 years. I'm proud of my service. I'm an Officer of the Military Merit. I believe in military discipline. I believe in military efficiency, but I also believe in justice. I also believe in fairness. I also believe that our soldiers can be first and foremost Canadian citizens who enjoy all their charter rights in addition to having the duty to fight when called upon, observing the regulations and obeying their orders. I will not in any way suggest that they can contravene a regulation that is legally binding.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

So in other words, a Canadian soldier when he signs on does give up some rights that an average Canadian citizen has.

4:15 p.m.

Col Michel W. Drapeau

No, he does not. He signs. He has all his rights, but like any other professional he's also subject to additional obligations. As a lawyer, I don't give up my rights because I become a lawyer. In addition to all my rights and obligations, I have certain rules that the law society imposes upon me. One of these is to keep confidential conversations and facts that I have from my clients. That's fine. That doesn't abridge my rights. It just gives me additional obligations. And it's the same for a soldier.

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB

But the soldier is obliged not to do things like publicly criticize government policy or the Prime Minister, or refuse a legal order on the battlefield.

4:15 p.m.

Col Michel W. Drapeau

I would suggest to you that the first obligation applies to you, too. I don't see you criticizing the Prime Minister.