National Defence Committee on March 23rd, 2011

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I do not want to put you on the spot. I have a question, however: what do we do when human shields are being used? It is a problem. Civilians are positioned around the various targets in order for us to not reach them. Is there a rule of engagement, or a rule recognized by all of the nations participating in the intervention, that prohibits firing on a target that is surrounded by civilians?

[RAdm Robert Davidson]

We have a process to follow for strategic targeting. It is based upon this process that we are able to determine if a target is reachable or not. The idea is to avoid civilian deaths. With a view to this, there is a process that must be followed, and it is the commanders who decide.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Based upon the most recent dispatch from Brussels, there is to date no agreement for assuming this responsibility.

It would seem that there are two problems. On the one hand, it appears that the United States are adamant that it be an American general. Obviously, that has often been the case. On the other hand, Turkey is not in favour of air strikes.

If we are saying that there is a no-fly zone, would the sole purpose of air-to-ground attacks not be the destruction of air defence batteries? Once anti aircraft batteries have been destroyed, are other targets allowed? If we want to have a protected air zone in order for allied aircraft to be able to patrol Libyan air space in complete safety, what is it that justifies ground air strikes?

[RAdm Robert Davidson]

Regarding the United Nations' mandate, the resolution states that we are authorized to undertake whatever is necessary to prevent Libyan forces from flying.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

It states "take any measures".

[RAdm Robert Davidson]

Yes, that is correct. In order for the situation to be stable, for our aircraft and for that of the other allies, it is necessary that we do what is required.

It is not a very clear explanation, but the idea is to do whatever is necessary in order for the Libyans to not be able to threaten our forces.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

It is the Air Operations Centre in Ramstein that decides on the targets.

[RAdm Robert Davidson]

There is a coordination centre in Ramstein. The Air Operations Centre in Ramstein is responsible for the coordination of the targets.

The choice of a target can come from the Air Operations Centre in Ramstein, but Canada is free to accept or refuse it.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

You are saying that it is up to Canada to decide. Is it the two individuals who are over there, and whom you talked about earlier? Should the decision not go all the way up to the Chief of Defence Staff or the minister?

[RAdm Robert Davidson]

It depends on the target.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

When it is a very strategic or dangerous target, then you move to the political level in Canada...

[RAdm Robert Davidson]

If there is an effect... We cannot launch attacks indiscriminately. We therefore have a process to verify if a given target is appropriate, if we have all of the necessary information in order to be certain that there is not...

I will switch to English, in order to be very clear.

We have to be clear, when we accept a target, that we have enough information on it to be able to make a valid decision on the quality of that target, that it meets our rules of engagement.

That process is done at both the theatre level.... We have a commander in theatre who is responsible for reviewing a target. If the parameters of the target exceed the authorities that have been delegated to him, then he must refer that target back to Canada.

There's a process here in Canada wherein we will review that target one more time and provide advice to the Chief of the Defence Staff, who will decide whether or not it's an appropriate target, provided it's within the bounds of the direction and guidance we've been given by government on the kind of mission that we're conducting.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

How much time does that take? Is it a rather rapid decision, given that the matter must be referred to Canada?

[RAdm Robert Davidson]

Yes, it is quite rapid, as it takes just a few hours.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

What do you think of the fact that the Americans want to have an American general in charge? That does not surprise you, does it?

[RAdm Robert Davidson]

Excuse me?

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

It is not surprising that they want the NATO operation to come under the command of an American general.

[RAdm Robert Davidson]

That is normal. It is now a coalition. The American generals are ready to undertake an operation as complex as this one is. Eventually, we could have command with a general from another NATO country.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

I believe my time is up.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Might I move my motion now?

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

No, we will first conclude this portion of the meeting.

[Claude Bachand, Bloc, Saint-Jean, QC]

Very well. I will do it at the end.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Maxime Bernier]

Mr. Harris, you have the floor.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you for joining us.

As you know, our party supported the United Nations Security Council resolution and the government action in this matter. But I have some questions about the extent of Canada's involvement.

First of all, in the most recent report, RAF Vice-Marshal Greg Bagwell, in a briefing in Italy this afternoon, said that the Libyan air force effectively no longer exists as a fighting force and that the coalition airplanes could fly over Libya with impunity. He essentially stated that the no-fly zone has been in effect and is working. That doesn't mean, I suppose, that they couldn't get a plane in the air at some time or at any time, and I'm sure that AWACS and all other surveillance equipment is in operation to make sure that it doesn't happen.

Other than being available to take someone out who's flying around in opposition to the Libyan air force, the concentration here seems to be on article 4 of the Security Council resolution. And I think that's where some people have a little concern. I know that we've seen the Arab League members be perhaps shocked by the ferocity of the attacks over the weekend, which were maybe not what they expected. Maybe they expected that only if somebody were flying around could they be stopped and shot down.

This is a Department of Foreign Affairs matter, to some extent, and Ms. Sinclair I'm sure will tell us if you can't answer these questions. I think one of the big concerns internationally, first of all, is whether there are any forces from Turkey or any of the Arab states. We've heard about Qatar. Are there any aircraft involved in this mission in terms of enforcing or acting on United Nations Security Council resolution 1973 at the present moment, or have they backed off?