Evidence of meeting #25 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aircraft.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lieutenant-General  Retired) Richard Evraire (Chairman, Conference of Defence Associations
Colonel  Retired) Brian MacDonald (Senior Defence Analyst, Conference of Defence Associations
Steven Staples  President, Rideau Institute
David Macdonald  Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

11:50 a.m.

Col Brian MacDonald

I don't think I said the F-35 is superior to the F-22. Since you raised the issue, I in fact had described to me one area in which there has been an increase in capability. That is the actual radar-absorbent paint covering. The technology has advanced under the F-35 development to the point where it is now being retrofitted to the existing F-22 fleet to improve the stealth characteristics of those aircraft.

We continue, as a sovereign nation, to have the responsibility to maintain our sovereignty. That maintenance of sovereignty comes in three packages, as it always has: navy, air, and army. It's necessary for us to maintain forces that are technologically up to date, that give our people the ability to fight and win, to ensure their training is appropriate, and to ensure their logistic support can support all of that.

The F-35, or the replacement—and when you look around, there is no alternative to the F-35—is a critical element of ensuring our air force is able to do its job of maintaining its responsibilities in the sovereign defence of this country, in my view.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

The pilots you talked to who were flying the F-22s, what were their comments on the aircraft, their ability to handle it, and the advantages they had? As you cited, there was the 144-to-zero score, but what made it so besides the stealth capability of it? What does it do in the cockpit that allows the pilot to focus on flying?

11:55 a.m.

Col Brian MacDonald

I will cite one point that was made by one of the pilots, who was not an American, but was rather a Brit who was flying there. I think he was flying an F-15 at that point, with one of the greatest search radars going. He said, “There was at one point an F-22 inside our space within visual range—I could see him—but my radar was not able to lock on him. If I had fired a missile at him, it would have been a random shot.”

The real point on the technology of stealth is that it prevents the other aircraft's targeting radars from being able to lock on you, which they have to do for a period in order to have a chance that when the missile is fired it is going to impact the target area. The stealth dimension is absolutely critical in the future air force combat environment.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

It's a force multiplier.

11:55 a.m.

Col Brian MacDonald

It's a force multiplier. The pilots we have had reports from who have driven the F-35 think that it is a superb aircraft because in addition to stealth it has a fusion capability, which takes the data flow from all of the sensors and integrates it such that the pilot is totally aware of his combat environment. Purely as a non-stealth fighter aircraft, it's an extremely effective aircraft.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

I know from your work on the Atlantic Council editing many strategic studies and so forth, you have long experience. I think your service began in the late 1960s, if I'm not mistaken.

11:55 a.m.

Col Brian MacDonald

It was1957.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

I won't go all the way back to 1957, but you've lived through the lean years, the dark years, the decade of darkness, up to the point where we entered Bosnia and relearned past lessons, and of course through Afghanistan.

What would you and the association perhaps foresee that Canada would be involved in, missions similar to Haiti or Libya? Have you any particulars? Could you provide any forecast?

11:55 a.m.

Col Brian MacDonald

Yes, I will make the forecast that the future is not very solidly forecastable.

I was certainly totally surprised by what developed in terms of 9/11 and then the involvement in the Afghan mission that followed. I was totally surprised by the Arab Spring, surprised by the revolution and civil war in Libya, and surprised by a whole bunch of other events that are going on around the world.

If you ask somebody in the strategic studies business to make a hard forecast, you're going to get a very cold stare.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

Therefore we need to remain ready, because almost anything could crop up on our radar?

11:55 a.m.

Col Brian MacDonald

Exactly. The greater range of capabilities you have gives you the greater ability to respond to the unexpected, and the unexpected is critical.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Ted Opitz Conservative Etobicoke Centre, ON

Absolutely. Thanks.

Chair, do I still have time?

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

You're out of time. Thank you very much.

We've got time for one more round.

Mr. Sandhu.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC

I'll pass my time to Christine, please.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Okay.

Madame Moore.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Let's talk about the development of fifth generation fighter aircraft. In comparison with the Chinese and Russian aircraft of the same generation, how does the F-35 perform in air combat situations?

11:55 a.m.

Col Brian MacDonald

There has not been an air combat involving F-35s or J-20s or the T-50s, since all three aircraft are at various stages of development and there's not been a sufficient body of data to be able to run this thing through the simulators.

There is speculation as to what is intended to be done by these aircraft. For example, the suggestion is that the J-20's mission will be the forcing back of the United States Navy by being able to approach an American carrier battle group in this stealthy fashion, then carry a high-speed missile and drop it when they're within range of the carrier, and by this then being able to saturate the carrier's air defences. That seems to be the logical thinking that is currently going on in the People's Liberation Army.

On the Russian side, of course, the Sukhoi aircraft is intended to be a counter to the F-22 and therefore is being seen as an air superiority fighter whose job it is to secure the air, in which attack aircraft could then do various jobs.

The F-35 has not been run against either of these aircraft, so I can't give you an answer to that, but it certainly is a very legitimate question to ask.

Noon

NDP

Christine Moore NDP Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I'd also like to talk briefly about Arctic sovereignty. It's one of the pillars of the Canada First Defence Strategy. We consider it quite important.

The F-35 has one engine, while other fighter jets, such as the Super Hornet, have two. A number of experts agree that operations conducted in the Arctic with a single-engine aircraft are riskier for pilots if there is engine failure. Rescue operations take longer in the Arctic in the event of a mechanical problem. Given the temperatures, it's very risky for our pilots. Although the reliability of the engine is better, there is still only one and the risks theoretically remain higher.

Also, the F-35s can only cover 2,220 kilometres before refuelling, whereas the CF-18s can fly 3,700 kilometres. We've also heard that adjustments were needed, that the F-35 communication systems won't be operational when they start being used in the Arctic and that the landing strips are too short.

What's your opinion about this? What do you think about the operational capacity of the F-35s in the Arctic?

Noon

Col Brian MacDonald

When you are looking at deploying fighter aircraft into the Arctic, you then look immediately at the question of how you're going to have enough gas. Then the responses are, first of all, that you look at the existing forward operating locations, which are in Iqaluit, Whitehorse, and I've forgotten the third one in the centre. This allows you to deploy forward to a base, which is one that has fuel on it, and refuel your aircraft and fly them out of that base at the time of whatever the exigency is.

Alternatively, when you put a fighter aircraft up, you put a tanker up with it. As it goes on its mission and runs to the point where it's now beginning to run out of gas, it simply refuels from the tanker that is there. You can in fact maintain a pattern between us and the Americans of tankers to support a forward-deployed aircraft.

Now, certainly when one looks at the existing forward operating locations, they are in the mid-north, not in the high north. I would certainly think that as we continue to develop Resolute Bay, then the gravel runway that is there should be then upgraded to a proper tarmac runway, and additional tankage put in there so it in fact becomes a high north refuelling location in addition to the ones in the lower north.

From Resolute Bay you can then cover the entirety of the choke point of the Northwest Passage, and you're within reasonable range of being able to go to Alert, if necessary, and to move into the area beyond northern Alert, up to the North Pole, which is now part of the search and rescue responsibility we have agreed to as part of the Arctic negotiations.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you. The time has expired and our first hour here is up.

I want to thank both General Evraire and Colonel MacDonald from the Conference of Defence Associations for your insight today and for helping us with our study on readiness.

Again, as was pointed out earlier, congratulations on your 80th anniversary. I know that with the upcoming conference on defence and security on February 23 and 24, there will probably be some celebrations of your 80 years and the positive input you've had in the Canadian Department of Defence and of course our Canadian armed forces.

With that, we're going to suspend, as we'll switch around our witnesses here quickly. Lunch is served to committee members in the back corner.

We're suspended.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

We're going to call this meeting back to order so that we can maximize our time this morning.

Joining us for the second hour, from the Rideau Institute we have Steven Staples, the president; and from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, we have David Macdonald, who's a senior economist. I'll ask both of you to make your opening comments.

Mr. Staples, you have the floor.

12:10 p.m.

Steven Staples President, Rideau Institute

Merci.

I want to thank you, members, for inviting me to appear today to contribute to your study on the readiness of the Canadian Forces.

I'm joined by my colleague, David Macdonald, who works both for the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives as an economist and for the Rideau Institute as a contributor and who wrote The Cost of 9/11, our recent report released last fall, which he will speak to after my remarks.

The Rideau Institute is a non-profit, non-partisan research, advocacy, and consulting group. We were founded in 2006. We specialize in international affairs and we are funded by more than 2,000 individual supporters, by commissioned research, and through our social enterprise, which provides consulting services to leading Canadian non-profit groups and trade unions. We do not receive government funding and our supporters do not receive tax deductions for their donations.

I would like to thank David Macdonald, Bill Robinson, Josh Libben, and Kathleen Aiken for their research contributions to our presentation today.

Your report is timely. More than a decade after 9/11—which was followed by such tremendous changes, growth, and heavy combat by our armed forces—the tide is shifting. In answer to the question you are considering, “Are they ready?”, one might answer “Yes, they are” or “No, they're not.” But I think the answer to the question is a question, which is “Ready for what?” Readiness is a measure against a need. What threats are there to Canada? What are the priorities of our foreign policy, to which the Department of National Defence is one contributor?

As you know, the United States has just announced a new direction for its armed forces, borne out of three factors, according to The New York Times: troubled government finances, the winding-down of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and a changing geopolitical environment. We're not exempt from these same factors, so such a review is also needed here in Canada, since we have our own financial challenges to address. Our Afghanistan combat mission has ended, and Osama bin Laden is dead.

As David Macdonald pointed out in The Cost of 9/11, in the last decade, military spending has increased dramatically. Military spending has nearly doubled: 90% in 10 years, or 48% if you adjust it for inflation. When you include other departments, Canada has devoted an additional $92 billion to national security spending over and above what we would have spent had 9/11 not happened and if defence spending had stayed at its then-level: in adjusted dollars, $69 billion.

Some charts were distributed, and I want to draw your attention to chart 1. You'll see that national defence spending has never been higher. Spending is more than $21 billion. In terms of real dollars, we are the sixth-highest spender among the 28 members of NATO and we're in the top 15 spenders globally. Despite a small decline last year, as you see on chart 1, the Department of National Defence is predicting further increases in accordance with the Canada First defence strategy.

I direct your attention to chart 2. Looking at defence spending since the end of the Second World War, when adjusted for inflation, our spending has never been higher, exceeding even the height of the Cold War, when we faced off against thousands of Soviet nuclear weapons and long-range bombers. Can we say we face a greater threat than that today? If not, should we continue spending like we do? The fact is that we are overspending on defence right now, and we lack a clear sense of how to know when enough is enough, when it's the right amount.

I direct you to chart number three in the package, which shows the division of government spending on various departments and transfers. This was provided by the Department of Finance. You can see that national defence now accounts for 7.9% of total government spending. However, when you only look at federal departmental spending as when it is crown corporations, defence is consuming one out of every four dollars available to you.

As Lieutenant-General Andrew Leslie pointed out in his CF transformation report, there is substantial room to find savings within the Department of National Defence. Every area of the government that has been asked to contribute in time of need to help our federal finances needs to make a contribution.

Many people I've heard from in the last few days—and more than 400 have sent ideas for this presentation—are worried that their pensions are at risk and social programs may erode. They certainly support a military capable of defending our sovereignty and contributing to international missions, particularly UN peacekeeping operations, but not at the expense of our finances and caring for people here at home. Since we're overspending on defence, social programs can be better protected through national defence spending reductions, while still making an international contribution.

The final chart is number four. It gives some new numbers that we're presenting for the first time today. MIR reports have indicated that the Department of National Defence may be asked for reductions in excess of the 5% or 10% that's been requested by the government from all departments. I think this is reasonable, because our examination of defence and government spending over the last decade shows that while government spending has increased by 40%, defence spending has increased by 60%. That is, defence spending has grown 1.5 times faster than government spending over the last ten years. In one year alone, as Colonel MacDonald pointed out, the defence budget grew by more than 12%.

It's clear that the commitments made in the Canada First defence strategy must be reviewed. Our allies are going through the same process. Many are questioning stealth-plated aircraft programs like the F-35, and Canada can do the same. As Professor Walter Dorn says—I think you're going to hear from him later in your further studies at the Canadian Forces College—there are hawks and there are doves, but what we need are more owls. We need to spend more wisely.

British Prime Minister David Cameron shared a bit of this wisdom in his speech to Parliament last year. I'm sure you were there. He asked you to look at Afghanistan and said that if we had put a fraction of our current military spending on Afghanistan into helping Afghanistan develop 15 or 20 years ago, just think what we might have been able to avoid over the last decade.

We can get into a debate about whether the financial burden borne by Canadians over the last ten years was warranted, but I think we should be asking ourselves if we want to continue spending at this high level. More importantly, what are our needs? Can we take action so that we're ready to meet our legitimate security needs and contribute on the international stage in a manner that Canadians want and support?

As Lieutenant-General Andrew Leslie pointed out in his report, if we're serious about the future--and we must be--the impact of reallocating thousands of people and billions of dollars from what we're doing now to what we want them to do to position us for tomorrow will require some dramatic changes.

Thank you, and I look forward to the question period.

I'll turn it over to my colleague, David Macdonald.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Mr. Macdonald.

12:15 p.m.

David Macdonald Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Thank you, Steve.

Thank you for inviting me today.

In the report The Cost of 9/11, which came out in September of last year, I looked at the growing costs not only of defence spending but also of other security programs and public safety programs since 9/11. Some of those programs didn't even exist in 2001, and in fact were created later, as departments were put together and more money was put into them.

The report concludes, as Steve already summarized, that $92 billion has been spent since 2001, in addition to that 2001 base, or about $69 billion in inflation-adjusted terms. We could certainly argue about whether that money was well spent on this burgeoning national security establishment that encompasses certainly the Department of National Defence, but also border security, CSIS, the RCMP, and the Department of Public Safety. But I think the question, as Steve stated correctly, is should we continue to spend at that same level, given that we are now ten years out from 9/11?

In fact the spending has ramped up over this period, with the most significant increases in the last several years. We are now spending $13 billion, in inflation-adjusted terms, more than we spent in 2001, a significant amount on all these national security establishment programs. So I think it's an open question as to whether, in the current economic environment, we should continue to be spending in these areas or in other areas. The government is certainly concerned about deficit reduction, and $13 billion a year is a significant piece of that deficit.

Although this isn't particular to the Department of National Defence, some of the other programs, in particular, have grown substantially and have grown much more rapidly, in fact, than National Defence itself. The Canada Border Security Agency, which didn't even exist in its present form, has grown by almost 200%. Canada's spy agency, which certainly did exist, has grown almost exactly by 200%. But Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, this completely new department that didn't exist at all in its current form, has grown over 400% since 2000.

The question today for us, and for you, is whether we should continue spending at this level, whether we should reduce this level, or whether this money could be better spent in other areas of the federal government.

Thank you.

I'd like to open up the floor for questions for either Steve or me.

12:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative James Bezan

Thank you.

Madam Moore, you're going to kick us off with a seven-minute round.