National Defence Committee on Oct. 27th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Good morning, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

We're going to have a briefing on the situation in Libya, and we're pleased to have with us today, from the Department of National Defence, Brigadier General Craig King, who is the director general of operations of the Strategic Joint Staff. We have Marius Grinius, who is the director general of international security policy. And joining us again is Captain Geneviève Bernatchez, the deputy judge advocate general of operations.

Joining us from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, we have Barbara Martin, the director general of the Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, and Marie Gervais-Vidricaire, who is the director general, stabilization and reconstruction task force.

I want to welcome all of you here.

I believe that Ms. Martin wanted to kick off with opening comments, so you have the floor.

[Barbara Martin, Director General, Middle East and Maghreb Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a great privilege to speak to you today, just a week after the historic events of October 20, and only days after the declaration of victory by the chair of the National Transitional Council, Abdul Jalil, on October 23.

His statement that day marks the end of the rule of Moammar Gadhafi, who eight months ago swore to fight his people to the last bullet. It also marks the beginning of a new chapter in Libyan history. Libyans are now paying tribute to those who gave their lives in this struggle and to those who were wounded, but they are also celebrating in a very typical Libyan way, shooting guns into the air. Our staff in Tripoli hunker down at times like this. What goes up must come down.

Canadians can be proud to have stood behind the NTC and the people of Libya from the start of this conflict. In fact, as Minister Baird has said, Canada has punched above its weight. We took a leadership role in ensuring the protection of civilians through NATO's Operation Unified Protector, and General Charles Bouchard has made us all proud with his successful leadership of this mission.

General Craig will speak to this issue momentarily.

While there has been much celebration in Libya and around the world, there have been questions about the circumstances surrounding Gadhafi's death. As a consequence, we welcomed chairman Jalil's announcement on October 24 that he is establishing a commission of inquiry into Gadhafi's death. This is an important step for a state that is seeking to be firmly based on the rule of law.

Preventing reprisals towards pro-Gadhafi Libyans, be they civilians or former combatants, has been a high priority for the NTC and must continue to be so. Freed from the shadow of the Gadhafi regime, the Libyan people now have the opportunity to begin, in earnest, down the road to democracy.

Under Libya's constitutional declaration developed last August, the next steps are clear. The NTC is to establish its presence in Tripoli, moving from Benghazi, and within 30 days the NTC will name a transitional government--that is, a cabinet. This will likely take place sooner than 30 days. Over the next three months, this transitional government or cabinet will issue an initial election law, name an electoral commission, and issue the call for elections for a new general national congress, or a Parliament.

These elections are to take place within 240 days. The general national congress will select a new Prime Minister, and the Prime Minister will name a temporary government. It will also appoint a constitutional committee to draft a new constitution to be submitted to the congress within two months of its appointment. Within one month after the development of the new constitution, after it's submitted to the congress, the draft constitution is to be put forward to the Libyan people in a referendum requiring two-thirds approval. Again, within a month of that, another election law is to be issued by the congress to govern elections that are to take place within six months to create a permanent government.

Overall, this process is likely to take more than a year or so. It's a very ambitious timetable, nonetheless, and there will be many bumps in the road. In many ways, what Libyans have achieved already, while impressive, was the easiest part. Their work to build a fully inclusive democracy for all, and from scratch, has only just begun.

Chairman Jalil's comments in his victory speech about marriage and about the place of Sharia law have invited comment both internationally and in Libya. It will be important to those who supported Libyans in their quest for freedom that women are not denied their full rights and protections. There's also a need to secure dangerous weaponry to ensure the safety of Libyan people and the stability of the region. Minister Baird made both of these points very clear to the NTC leadership during his visit to Tripoli two weeks ago.

The NTC has done a fair job so far in maintaining order, but it must still demobilize many of the militias that fought hard and bravely for a free Libya, including those in Tripoli, where different factions still guard different parts of the city. These men who sacrificed much will want their voices heard, and many will be seeking power in the new Libya.

Integrating the militia under one national command is another critical task. Further, to build national unity, there will be a need for a process of reconciliation to move towards general political pluralism and inclusion.

All Libyans, including youth and women, will want to contribute to a shared vision of their country and to help define a common understanding of democracy and citizenship in the new Libya. But the ambitious timeline for Libya's transition may make it difficult to ensure wide public consultations and promote national identity in a country where Gadhafi reigned by creating division for the last 42 years. The new government authorities also face high demands for a better quality of life, improved education, medical services, and employment opportunity. Expectations are rising quickly for a rapid improvement after four decades of stagnation.

The victory in Libya is extremely significant, not only for Libya, but also for the region as a whole. Consequently, Canada remains committed to supporting Libyans during their country's transition to democracy, just as we continue to support transitions under way in Tunisia and in Egypt. But ultimately, it is up to the citizens of those countries to choose their own future.

Canada has responded quickly over the last several months to support the new Libya. In August, we accredited the new Libyan chargé d'affaires appointed by the National Transitional Council, the NTC. In September, the Prime Minister attended a meeting of the Friends of Libya in Paris, as well as a high level meeting on Libya in New York.

The Prime Minister and Minister Baird met separately on the margins of these events with the Chair of the Executive Board of the National Transitional Council, Mahmud Jibril to discuss Canada's involvement.

In early September, Canada lifted its unilateral sanctions on Libya which had been imposed under the Special Economic Measures Act in order to make those funds available to the NTC.

After receiving approval from the United Nations, Minister Baird announced on September 13 that Canada would be unfreezing all Libyan assets held in Canada and Canadian institutions, frozen under United Nations resolutions. These assets are worth roughly $2.2 billion. The steps necessary to release the funds are complete and the National Transitional Council has begun issuing instructions concerning their release.

As you no doubt know, on September 16, the UN Security Council agreed, through resolution 2009, to establish the United Nations Support Mission in Libya, UNSMIL, under the leadership of Special Representative of the Secretary-General, Ian Martin.

The mission was mandated for an initial period of three months to support Libyan efforts to, among other objectives, restore public security and order, and promote the rule of law.

The resolution also eased—not lifted—the sanctions imposed under UNSC resolutions, including by easing the arms embargo to allow, for example, items intended for security and disarmament assistance to the Libyan authorities.

The UN mission personnel quickly established itself on the ground in Tripoli and prepared to assist. However, the NTC requested that work only move forward once an interim government is in place. They want to ensure that the process is in fact Libyan-led, and that they remain in the driver's seat. However, this has presented a challenge to the UN mission's ability to deliver Libyan-led assessments on the original timeline. It will likely be some time before tangible multilateral projects can be implemented, and it is very likely that the mission will need to be extended.

For our part, Canada will align its assistance with the framework agreed with the NTC and will respond to its requests.

In Tripoli two weeks ago, Minister Baird observed first-hand the significant progress achieved since his trip to Benghazi in June. In Tripoli he reiterated Canada's ready support for Libyans to enjoy what they have so long craved: freedom, democracy, and respect for human rights and the rule of law. He outlined the post-conflict support Canada can provide. He announced a Canadian contribution of $10 million in assistance to secure and remove conventional weapons and weapons of mass destruction, a priority of the NTC and the international community.

He also offered to provide technical assistance, if requested, for constitution-drafting, elections, and human rights, particularly to support the role of women. He led a round table of NGOs, with the participation of a Canadian NGO, on the important role women should play in the new Libya.

The minister was accompanied by four Canadian business organizations already active in Libya and ready to re-establish contact with their Libyan partners. Trade and investment form a critical dimension of Canada's relationship with Libya, and over the years Canadian companies have built a significant presence in that market, some having been there for over 30 years. The embassy is currently staffed and can now provide full services to Canadians in Libya, including support for Canadian companies.

It's important to bear in mind that Libya is not a poor country. Its oil wealth is a foundation for the building that must take place. Already oil production is back to slightly less than 25% of what it was in pre-conflict levels.

In closing, I'd like to say that the Libyan revolution that started in February has been a march to liberty requiring great courage and sacrifice, and Canada pays tribute to the Libyan people.

I would be happy to respond to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, Ms. Martin.

General King, would you bring us your opening comments?

[Brigadier-General Craig King, Director General, Operations, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to brief you on Operation MOBILE, Canada's military contribution to the international effort to respond to the crisis in Libya.

You will recall that NATO's Operation Unified Protector and Canada's Operation MOBILE were initiated in response to United Nations Security Council Resolutions 1970 and 1973, enforcing the arms embargo on Libya and protecting civilians and civilian-populated areas through the creation of a no-fly zone over Libya.

Canada's contribution consists of seven CF-18 fighter aircraft, two CP-140 Aurora maritime patrol aircraft, two CC-150 Polaris and one CC-130 Hercules refueling aircraft, and of course HMCS Vancouver. In total, approximately 630 Canadian Forces personnel are participating in the mission. And as Barbara has mentioned, significantly, NATO's Operation Unified Protector has been under the command of our own Canadian Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard.

I would like to take this opportunity to update you on recent events since you were last briefed. Since September 20, 2011, events in NATO, Canada, and Libya have moved quickly. NATO extended Operation UNIFIED PROTECTOR for 90 days on September 21. On September 26, the Canadian mission to Libya was extended for an additional 90 days, in line with the NATO extension.

Since then, events on the ground in Libya have moved rapidly. The Gadhafi stronghold of Bani Walid fell on October 17, along with the city of Sirte on October 20. On the same day as the fall of Sirte, Colonel Gadhafi was killed, along with members of his regime leadership. These events marked the end of the pro-Gadhafi forces as an organized military force and led the National Transitional Council to declare Libya liberated this past Sunday.

With the National Transition Council forces now in control of Libya, the threat of organized attacks against civilians has diminished greatly and conditions have been set for the termination of NATO's mandate.

In response to these developments, NATO has suspended all air strike operations in Libya and continues to monitor the situation. On October 21, the North Atlantic Council took a preliminary decision to terminate the mission Unified Protector on October 31. This termination date will be discussed at the next North Atlantic Council meeting, scheduled for tomorrow, and we are expecting a decision at that time. Canadian Forces elements remain deployed in theatre pending the results of these discussions and subsequent Government of Canada direction.

The Canadian Forces are proud of the contributions we have made to NATO and to the Libyan people. Royal Canadian Air Force aircraft have flown approximately 1,500 sorties in support of Operation Unified Protector and Operation MOBILE, enforcing the no-fly zone and protecting Libya's population. Royal Canadian Navy ships enforced the arms embargo and prevented reinforcement of the pro-Gadhafi forces and of arms shipments by sea.

Canadian Forces are proud to have been part of this mission and of the role they have performed in allowing the Libyans to chart a better future for their country.

We are ready to answer any questions you may have at this time.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you, General King.

We're all very proud of the work that the Canadian Forces have done covering Libya.

We'll start with our seven-minute round.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Brahmi.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Okay.

Mr. Brahmi, you have seven minutes.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to specifically thank the witnesses for making things clear. I would like to thank them for their time.

We are very proud of and grateful to the Canadian Forces for the outstanding work they did on this mission, which was a success. We are particularly pleased to celebrate it. We specifically acknowledge the role our forces have played in maintaining the arms embargo, which is crucial in terms of this conflict spreading to neighbouring countries.

On that note, I would like us to look at an issue that is generally of great concern in the region. It has to do with arms being distributed right and left, as we know. I am thinking of Algeria, for example. Algeria's border with Libya is a sieve for large quantities of weapons.

I am not sure who is going to answer, but I would like our guests to clarify the current situation of unrestricted weapons, especially the SA-7 and SA-24 surface-to-air missiles, which are very dangerous for commercial flights, for example.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Ms. Gervais-Vidricaire, the floor is yours.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire, Director General, Stabilization and Reconstruction Task Force, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to thank the member for this question.

There are in fact a huge number of weapons in Libya. Mr. Ian Martin, the special representative of the secretary general, held an information session yesterday at the Security Council. And he pointed out that there were huge amounts of weapons in Libya. I think the announcement made by Minister Baird during his visit about the $10-million contribution to secure, control or destroy those weapons is timely. There is a consensus that it is a priority for the security of Libya and the region.

That is why we are developing a program. On the one hand, $6 million will come from our Global Partnership Program. The $6 million will help us work together with our American and British partners, as well as with international organizations, such as the International Atomic Energy Agency and the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons. The first objective is to bring security to the country and to destroy those weapons of mass destruction.

On the other hand, $4 million will come from our global peace and security fund and will be used for conventional weapons, for mine clearance and for MANPADS, air-defence systems that is. There are actually thousands of MANPADS; it really is a concern.

So we are going to work with the UN Mine Action Service and reputable local NGOs that have already started mine clearance operations. In terms of controlling and eliminating MANPADS, we are in talks with our American partners in particular, but also with the United Nations. The UN coordinates everything in order to see where our contribution would make the biggest difference.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

That's good.

In terms of control, how are roles shared between the Canadian Forces, or Canada in general, NATO and the UN? How are responsibilities shared?

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

My colleague form the Department of National Defence talked about their contribution, but all those issues are certainly coordinated by the UN as they have already acknowledged the extent of the problem.

A certain amount of time will be needed to assess the needs. At the same time, we have identified some urgent needs. That is why we want to move as quickly as possible, together with those who are already on the ground and who have already started the mine clearance operations, so that they can move faster. We have found a lot of mines and weapons in Syrte and Bani Walid in particular.

The Canadian programming I was talking about will be done with our partners and the United Nations.

I will now yield the floor to the representative from the Department of National Defence so that he can share his point of view with you.

[BGen Craig King]

Thank you very much.

That's a good question. I will answer in my mother tongue.

The Canadian Forces has not received any request to assist in the process that Marie has described. We're aware of the situation. If a request came, we would consider where the Canadian Forces would contribute best to the programs that are ongoing under the auspices of the United Nations.

Having said that, the programs that Marie described are not ones that require particular military expertise to execute. Things such as de-mining have been going on in operational theatres around the world and in places such as Bosnia under the auspices of civilian organizations. In some cases it's better to do it that way, so that there is not an appearance of a foreign military force on the terrain.

Our understanding at this stage is that the National Transitional Council prefers it that way; there is no intention, as we understand it, that there be a request coming forward for western military forces to perform any kind of task along these lines on the ground in Libya. But if a request did come, we would certainly consider it.

[Tarik Brahmi, NDP, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Norlock, it's your turn.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

And to our witnesses, thank you very much for appearing this morning.

Today is our briefing on Libya, but this committee is also engaged on a very significant study with regard to preparedness. My question will be based on that study, but also on talking about our Libyan experience.

Of course we heard and we know that Canada once again punched above our weight, and we performed a significant role in Libya. My questions will be on the lessons learned, the areas we have excelled in, the areas in which we may need to make adjustments to operational planning and execution. The context would be in terms of lessons learned not only by Canada but also by NATO. I wonder, General King, whether you could expand on that.

[BGen Craig King]

Thanks very much for the question. It's an excellent one, and it's one that certainly preoccupies someone like me in my current job.

Before addressing some of the specifics there, I will say that in terms of lessons learned as a matter of process, it is quite normal for us to go through a very formal review process. I believe you might have been exposed to this when you were out in Wainwright as part of your committee deliberations, but there is a sort of line.

We have a doctrine that governs how we conduct operations, effectively how we go about fighting. This doctrine is developed in relation to current events, current nature of warfare, and current nature of operations we find ourselves in. We study that doctrine, we train for that doctrine, and then we execute that doctrine in a theatre of operations, after which we take the time to develop the lessons learned from that. We are actually in that process now of discerning those specific lessons learned. The idea is that once you get those lessons learned, you feed them back into your doctrine so that not only are we're taking account of the lessons we've learned but our doctrine remains relevant, it remains an effective reflection of the operating environment. That process is ongoing now. It's occurring at a variety of levels. General Bouchard, when we had a video teleconference earlier this week, indicated that they are doing that within NATO. We at the Canadian Forces are undertaking that. We've had an initial review, and we'll finalize this in the coming months.

When we do lessons learned, we try to find those things that we want to reinforce, as well—it's not that everything's bad. Then we want to find new areas where we have to perhaps show some improvement. The way this operation came about, it happened very quickly. Our readiness levels will be discussed, as you made reference to, and I believe there will be further discussions with this committee with people who are responsible for that aspect of our force management. I'll leave some of the detail of that for your further deliberations. Certainly what we had reinforced with us is that with the posture we were on when the call came, we were able to anticipate, and we responded within a matter of days.

Now, when you respond that quickly, there are things that need to be improved, and we've identified those as a matter of command and control within the Canadian Forces. But I have to say, in terms of our responsiveness, that we were very pleased with the speed with which we responded strategically and operationally, and we were able to put forces into theatre and within days of arrival, executing operations in support of the UN Security Council resolutions.

On the more tactical level, the other thing we've discerned is, again, the tremendous capability and fighting effectiveness of our airmen and our sailors who were deployed on this mission. It's through the professionalism and the training of our pilots that they were able to execute very difficult missions under very demanding circumstances. They did that with alacrity, and full credit goes to them for any kudos that are due. It's the same thing with our maritime forces. The two vessels, HMSC Charlottetown and HMSC Vancouver, did a tremendous job in terms of working up, being prepared for their mission, and executing again under very difficult circumstances.

There were some things we've done there that would not be appropriate to discuss in this round, which had to do with the execution of our mission, our targeting processes and what not, which we are constantly reviewing and discussing. We've learned a lot of lessons there that we would apply to future missions. If you want to take a similar look in time between say an operation like Kosovo and what we've just completed in Libya, the reaction time was much more compressed. The circumstances we were operating under in terms of how we structured the mission were different, and we've learned a lot of valuable lessons that will be captured as part of our lessons learned process.

Sorry for the long answer, but it's an interesting question. Forgive me. I have a little bit of passion here.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Well, I would hope you do, frankly.

This is just for a little bit of context, although it's a much broader context. I think it feeds into your statement about our preparedness and how quickly we were able to get involved and to begin to execute the mission. It was a program I was watching last night on TVO with regard to the whole Middle East. Of course there was some mention of Libya in that and of the fact that, unlike some of the countries that are experiencing the march towards democracy—as I like to refer to it—Libya has the ability to sustain itself in regard to its financial position, and Madam Martin referred to this.

We talked about how quickly we responded. Perhaps even someone else on the panel of witnesses could respond. Do you see the need for Canada to be able to respond in such a quick manner, and is that part of your preparedness, the ability for Canada to take on these roles that are requested of it through the United Nations and/or NATO?

[BGen Craig King]

Thanks, sir. Maybe what I can do is just address the military portion of that and invite Barbara to make any accompanying comments.

Our responsibility as a military force is to be able to respond to direction that we receive from the Government of Canada, based on the requirements to participate in operations to enforce the goals of our country, and we maintain that posture. Part of that is kind of twofold. One is that we have to make sure the military forces are prepared, and we have an elaborate system of going through that, and again, you will hear more about that. But also it goes to our monitoring and being able to anticipate—being able to anticipate events globally and being able to anticipate the kinds of things our government may be requiring us to do.

In the post-Libyan-conflict environment, we are maintaining a very careful watch on events there. I hope you got a sense of that through Barbara's discourse at the start. We are very carefully monitoring the situation; it's a very complex environment. The Canadian Forces, along with our whole-of-government partners, are in regular consultation for the sorts of contingencies that may apply to that region. Hopefully you'll be assured that this monitoring, surveillance, and readiness to be able to execute are being maintained.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. Your time has expired.

Mr. McKay, it's your turn.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for coming this morning.

I want to add my voice, on behalf of the Liberal Party, in congratulating the military on a mission well done.

The point of any military mission, particularly in a responsibility-to-protect mission, is the projection of one's values. In this particular case, the value was that we as a civilized nation will not stand around and watch another nation slaughter its own people, regardless of the issues of sovereignty. In that respect, because the military mission was so well executed, Canada gained a bully pulpit, for want of a better term, and an opportunity to speak into the formation of values in Libya.

The first event post-conflict was this very bizarre exercise with the death of Mr. Gadhafi. The means of his death was bizarre, first of all saying it was crossfire, then it appeared to be assassination, then it appeared to be torture prior to assassination, and then we had this even more bizarre spectacle of his body being displayed over a number of days, which I believe offends Islamic traditions. Yet Canada did not use its authority—hard-won authority—gained by the military to speak loudly and clearly into that obvious breach of the rule of law.

We're off to a bad start. If this thing keeps up, this Arab spring may well turn into an Arab winter. You hate to think so, but you would like to think that the military mission not only accomplished something but will accomplish something in the long term.

My first question has to do with why it is that Canada, particularly the Minister of Foreign Affairs, but the Prime Minister as well, didn't speak to the NTC in particular, to Jalil in particular, loud, long, and hard that this is unacceptable behaviour and that it needs to be reined in and reined in quickly?

The second question has to do with what resources the Government of Canada is prepared to put up with respect to any inquiry there may be. One would not wish to have this inquiry as a pseudo inquiry, a fake inquiry, a predetermined-outcome inquiry, if in fact we are hopefully encouraging the people of Libya to go on towards the rule of law. I'd be interested in your comments.

The third question, directed to Brigadier-General King and Ms. Martin, is that there is some discussion as to whether Canada will be asked to extend its mission. If so, what would be the conditions of extension? I don't think we want to be in a situation where we're just supervising egregious breaches of the rule of law.

I appreciate that's a bit of a complex question, but to me these are the issues that need to be resolved. As you transition from a military mission to an aid and diplomacy mission, it's just as important to get it right; otherwise all your efforts are wasted.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Before we start off the first question that Mr. McKay asked, I'll just read out of O'Brien and Bosc.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

That would be charming.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We have before excused public servants from answering questions that relate to their relationship with their ministers.

On page 1068 in chapter 20 it says:

Particular attention is paid to the questioning of public servants. The obligation of a witness to answer all questions put by the committee must be balanced against the role that public servants play in providing confidential advice to their Ministers. The role of the public servant has traditionally been used in relation to the implementation and administration of government policy, rather than the determination of what that policy should be. Consequently, public servants have been excused from commenting on the policy decisions made by the government.

Essentially, we aren't expecting you to answer what ministers or the Prime Minister did or said, or what they didn't say. So I'll just put that out there and then ask you to answer.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

That's very helpful, Mr. Chair. You didn't take that off my time, I hope.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

No.

[Barbara Martin]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for that clarification.

I think we'll do a tag team response here.

I made clear in my statement that we welcomed the decision by the chairman of the NTC to undertake an investigation. Indeed, we are very aware that the NTC did not order what occurred in Sirte, and therefore their actions in looking into this are welcomed. I can say that as a matter of what we know of the circumstances to date.

Perhaps I could ask Marie to speak about other elements of that.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

I would just add in a more general way that you might be aware that the Council on Human Rights of the United Nations has set up a commission of inquiry about the human rights situation in Libya. This is an important exercise, of course, and with our global peace and security fund we have been able to support the inclusion of an expert on gender-based violence and sexual violence in that team that will do the investigation. That was a request we got from the United Nations women, that organization, and we were quite happy to support that to make sure that the women angle will be fully investigated as well.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

How are you ensuring that this will be a fair and transparent process? How will the average Libyan know that this is a first-time experience where the process itself is open, transparent, and accountable?

[Barbara Martin]

I think we'll have to make that assessment as the process unfolds. As Marie pointed out, there will be some engagement from the level of the UN. There is a UN special representative who will be based in Tripoli as well, who will have a certain concern and engagement with NTC authorities, and of course our own embassy will continue to have a dialogue with the NTC authorities.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Are we engaging any NGOs in this process?

[Barbara Martin]

Not at this time, no.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

And the answer on the question to the extension?

[BGen Craig King]

I just point out that our involvement in the mission was based on a series of UN Security Council resolutions and done in the context of an alliance. Those deliberations, as I mentioned, will be ongoing tomorrow within the North Atlantic Council, which will determine our posture from this forward. We're expecting that the mission will be terminated on Monday, but that decision has yet to be taken. Then any extension of the mission frankly is a question for government consideration. I don't mean to slope shoulders on that, but as the executing arm of the government this is the context within which we get launched.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Do you know whether there's been any request on the part the NTC?

[BGen Craig King]

There has been a request to extend us for a couple more months. This is what is making this discussion, not only at the North Atlantic Council but at the UN, something that is being carefully monitored. This is a political discussion that will have to be resolved.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Time has expired, so we're going to go on to our five-minute round now.

Mr. Strahl.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the witnesses.

This is our third meeting since I've been here that is discussing the situation in Libya. At the first meeting in August there was frustration and talk of stalemate and just a lot of uncertainty. In September we had a sense of the light at the end of the tunnel. And now, certainly, there's no disputing that the NATO mission was successful and is nearing a definite end.

I'm wondering whether we have any indicators in place that will demonstrate that the NTC is capable of carrying on alone, now that Gadhafi is no longer a threat. Have we established a formal operational liaison with the NTC forces to determine when they will be able to continue the task at hand on their own?

[BGen Craig King]

Thank you for your question, sir. Those are both really good questions.

I'd speak to the issue of liaison. There is no liaison between the Canadian Forces and the NTC forces; however, there has been NTC military representation at meetings. Yesterday, the chief was in a meeting in Doha that was sponsored by Qatar. There were discussions there. But that's the level of contact; it's at a very high level. There's no tactical-level liaison that is being maintained.

As to your first question with respect to professionalization of.... Is it whether they are capable of carrying on? Is that correct?

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Do we have any indication of how capable they are?

[BGen Craig King]

Clearly we're in a period of transition, as has been pointed out, and in a period of transition there's a lot of wait and see. But the indications we have at this stage are that the intent is to reintegrate the militia forces that coalesced to fight the Gadhafi regime and to professionalize them. Over time, their capacity will improve to the point of their being able to manage security for their own country, and that's a good direction for them to be going in.

In terms of some of the indicators we've been seeing at this point, there was a report I just read this morning that a brigade out of Misrata has asked to be decommissioned or to disarm and hand in its weapons. I can't say it's a trend right now, because we haven't seen enough events that would indicate a trend, but it's a good start.

Barbara made mention of the situation in Tripoli. There are definitely tensions, because we're in a period of transition in which forces on the ground, as Barbara has mentioned, could play a hand in political manoeuvers. But there have been some good indications out of Tripoli as well that would suggest that the coalescing of authority by the NTC is occurring, and they clearly understand the requirement to professionalize their force so that it is accountable for its actions.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Do we know whether there are still groups...? Gadhafi is gone, obviously, but are there still those loyal to his regime who pose a threat to civilians? What is the level of threat to civilians now that we're approaching the end of this conflict?

[BGen Craig King]

Again it's a good question and one we're carefully monitoring. I think this is the substance of the debate we were referring to earlier, in terms of where the discussions are going.

What we've said and General Bouchard has said in his comments over the past weekend is that there is no organized ability for the pro-Gadhafi forces to mount a concerted threat to civilians. Nor are there the authority figures of the former regime around whom you could coalesce a force to threaten the population, such as led to our being involved in the first place. We're not seeing those things.

Are there still pro-Gadhafi elements out there? There was a very interesting editorial in the Ottawa Citizen a few days ago, I think under the headline “Gadhafi Was No Joke”. There is a reason that he was in power as long as he was and was able to fight down to the last for as long as he did: there are people who are still loyal in that country. However, our assessment is that whatever loyal forces remain are still within the capacity of the NTC to deal with, and they've demonstrated recently their ability to do it.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. Christopherson, it's your turn.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Actually, I thought it was going to be Ms. Davies for the second round, and I'll do the third.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Ms. Davies.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much, Chairperson.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

I'm not a regular member of this committee, so I haven't been involved in the briefings that took place earlier. Certainly, like many Canadians, I've been following the news and watching what's been going on in Libya. It's been quite dramatic and incredible to see the changes taking place there. So I was very interested to hear your remarks today in terms of, I guess, the assessment from Canada's point of view and where we're headed now in terms of our future involvement.

Ms. Martin, just looking at the comments you made this morning, you say “Canada will align its assistance with the framework agreed with the NTC and will respond to its requests”.

I realize that there are many things happening at different levels, and it's all developing quite quickly. I could raise any number of them, but one in particular that I think is of importance and of some urgency is the situation regarding health issues, infrastructure, food issues, food security and availability, and basically, the status of the civilian population. There's no question that many cities were almost completely destroyed. The infrastructure was destroyed.

In terms of this framework agreement and your comments that Canada will be responding to requests, I think it would be very good for us to know whether Canadian officials are planning to intervene quickly. What kinds of resources do we have on the ground to respond to some of these very basic needs and to support the Libyan population? Is there a timetable for that? Is there a budget for that? Can you give us a sense of what kind of plan is going to unfold in terms of responding to what I would imagine are still very urgent needs in an urgent situation?

[Barbara Martin]

I am going to start, and then I'll ask Marie to fill in.

Indeed, many of the needs you're identifying—health issues, food, infrastructure—are related to the conflict, but other needs are related to the situation in Libya that existed prior to the conflict. There's an ongoing development requirement in the country.

Canada contributed slightly over $10 million to try to address the humanitarian needs in the country, and certainly in the areas of the most recent fighting there are continuing humanitarian needs. But in cities like Tripoli and Benghazi, those humanitarian needs have diminished enormously. Food is flowing. Food is in the shops. Water is available. There was actually relatively little damage to civilian infrastructure. The bombing was very targeted on military entities.

I could perhaps ask Marie to talk about what kind of programming we are pursuing.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

Thank you.

The key element in all of this is that there's general consensus that the Libyans have to lead the process; they have to tell us what it is they need.

They told the international community and the UN mission that they wouldn't do that until victory had been declared. So although the UN mission has been in Tripoli for some time now, they were not able to start the assessment of needs process, because victory had not been declared. Now it has been declared, so the process has started. The way it's organized is that, mostly under the United Nations, a series of assessments is going to be done, in close consultation with the Libyans again.

The UN is leading. I'll give you just some examples. There will be an assessment of social services needs related to health and education; a civil society assessment will be done by the European Union; infrastructure repairs will be done by the World Bank. Such issues as border control will be assessed as well. For disarmament, demobilization, and reintegration, the UN has the lead. And there are public security and the rule of law, electoral and constitutional processes, and so forth. There is a series of ten different areas in which the needs will be assessed.

As I said earlier, there's also a desire to move quickly. These assessments will take some time, frankly. We were hoping they would start earlier, but they are just starting, so I think it will take probably a couple of months to get the results of the assessments.

In the meantime, we are looking at what can be done in coordination with the UN in the short term. Our stabilization and reconstruction task force, my bureau, to start has sent an officer, who has been in Tripoli with our ambassador for the past three weeks speaking to the UN, speaking to the Libyans, speaking to our partners on the ground, to see what it is we could do in the coming weeks and months to get things done.

We have a number of ideas. When Minister Baird was in Tripoli, he met, as you may know, with a group of women activists. The role of women is certainly something we would like to support in the upcoming electoral process.

So we are looking at what we can do. We are speaking to some Canadian NGOs who have an interest. We are hoping.... We have funds available in our global fund for peace and security.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Time has expired, I'm sorry, and I am very judicious on keeping time.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

We are doing things. We are in the process of looking at what it is that we could do relatively quickly.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. Chisu.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, thank you for your presentations.

I would like to commend the Canadian Forces on their role in Libya. The leadership of General Bouchard demonstrated the application of our Canadian values. We must be proud of this, and I am expressing my pride on this as a former serviceman. We have done everything to avoid civilian casualties and we defended the civilians of Libya.

I have a question to the general. Can you inform the committee of all the resources Canada currently has allocated to the mission in Libya, both in terms of personnel and materiel? Has this number decreased? Are there any remaining requirements or requests from NATO or the NTC for continued Canadian monitoring and surveillance, or advice on potential counter-insurgency operations? We have seen what has been happening in Iraq; we have the bombings in Afghanistan, whose perpetrators have travelled from one country to another. How will Libya avoid this kind of counter-insurgency operation?

I have another question for Ms. Barbara Martin. Can you explain the role of the United Nations support mission in Libya? I have had some doubts concerning how you presented this one. Are they not in good relations with the NTC, or is something happening? Maybe you can elaborate on that.

The third one is the de-mining operation that you mentioned and how the money.... Who has the lead on this one? Do you have any oversight on the part of the military to be sure that the money allocated to de-mining is going to d-mining operations and not anywhere else?

Being a former engineer, I will ask these questions for sure.

[BGen Craig King]

Thank you, sir. It's good to see you again.

With respect to your first question, on resources, I would just refer back to my opening statement. In the Royal Canadian Navy, HMCS Vancouver, there were about 275 personnel deployed on that vessel. In the air operations, the fighters that we have, the seven CF-18s, the two maritime patrol aircraft, and the Polaris and the Hercules tankers that we have been using, and then we have about 80-odd people, so that is about another 275 folks there. And about 80 folks are engaged in various levels of headquarters, inside of NATO, and for national requirements. That's about 630 folks. But it was largely the Royal Canadian Air Force and Royal Canadian Navy contributions to the mission.

In terms of asks for surveillance in response to NATO or the NTC, no, sir, we have not received any requests along those lines. All of the efforts we have applied have been within the context of Operation Unified Protector, and when that mission terminates then our assets will be re-deployed according to direction from the Government of Canada.

The last point you raised is a very interesting one on counter-insurgency operations. I would just say very quickly that in order for an insurgency to exist, you have to have popular support of some kind, and it has to be coalesced around some kind of leadership. We're not anticipating that, and certainly the former regime has no legitimacy or credibility that would lend itself to an insurgency for which we would have to apply a counter-insurgency operation.

So that would be my response to the first part of your question, sir. I will turn it over to Barbara for the rest.

[Barbara Martin]

I would just like to say that I did not intend to leave the impression that there were not good relations between the UN representative in Tripoli and the NTC. There are excellent relations between him and the NTC. The challenge is that the NTC itself is in a tremendous situation of flux as it is seeking to appoint its new cabinet, and therefore the proper interlocutors for the UN mission were simply not in place. That should be happening over the course of the next few weeks.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

On the de-mining side, we are looking at $400,000 that would go to the UN Mine Action Services. That would be for that UN organization to provide expertise and advice to the Libyan authorities to set up their own mechanism to deal with de-mining. In addition, we are going to make a contribution of $2 million to two international NGOs that are specialized in de-mining. I know that in the case of Mines Advisory Group, the MAG, it is already de-mining in Libya. We have worked with it in Afghanistan in other contexts. The second NGO is the Swiss Foundation for Mine Action, again a very well-known organization in the area of de-mining, a very solid partner. We have worked with them in the past, so we are sure that if we give them money, it will be used for de-mining, not anything else.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. Christopherson, go ahead sir.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I appreciate that.

Thank you, guests, very much.

I am fairly new to this committee, so I'm just getting up to speed but very much appreciate the briefing this morning, like others. I think we need to say it is understood that it is unanimous—every one of us is very proud of the professionalism of our armed forces, and we all have respect for fellow citizens who don that uniform and step into harm's way on our behalf. We can fight like hell about the politics of missions and things in this place, but when it comes to those officers and those Canadians who are out there, we're all united in appreciating their efforts. Through you, we wish to say thanks.

If I can, I would like to pick up on going forward. It's suggested, Ms. Martin, that we may need to extend the mission, and of course that would be re-defined.

And let me say, Chair, that I totally respect the read-out that you did at the beginning, and I understand why.

I have total respect for the fact that there are lines, General, that you can't cross in terms of your comments to the minister, and I accept that.

Still, I would ask first off what sorts of military objectives still remain, given the new reality in Libya, above and beyond training transitional support. Or is that the extent of it? I'd like a bit of a short list of some of the military objectives going forward that you would see as potential components of a mission, were you to recommend to the minister and the minister to recommend to Parliament that we indeed have an extension.

[Barbara Martin]

Could I just clarify one point? My reference to the extension of the mission was to the UN stabilization mission in Libya, which is not the NATO mission Operation Unified Protector.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay. So I can be clear, then, is that to say that there is not a consideration for an extension of any kind of military mission, and that anything going forward would be something other than that?

[BGen Craig King]

It's difficult to respond, because there's quite a lot of speculation. I guess, sir, I could probably respond best in terms of the principles.

Clearly we are in a situation, if we go back to the genesis of Unified Protector and Operation Mobile, of an external agency—NATO, in this case—having a mandate to come in and protect Libyan civilians from the stated designs of their own regime. Clearly that is not a situation that anybody would want to see perpetuated for long. The mission has had the effect of reinforcing the Security Council resolutions, and that's all good. But clearly the position we need to get to is that security for Libya, in all of its dimensions, has been the responsibility of the National Transitional Council initially, and eventually a political process of representation, election, and democracy we hope will result in the Libyans taking ownership of this, as Barbara has mentioned.

That will require a professional military force to manage external threats, which is why a military force exists, and internal security forces along the lines of a police force that is professional, credible, and respected within the country.

Beyond those things, I think in your question you said that's the essential element in all of its dimensions. The pronouncements of the National Transitional Council at this stage indicate that it is heading in that direction. There will be a lot of work to be done. And there are allies of Libya that are already in discussions to assist in that process, particularly with respect to training the police, with respect to professionalizing the military. That is something that needs to be encouraged, and it will take time, as well, to build that.

But the immediate issue, from my standpoint—having had some experience in the Croatian civil war, in Bosnia, and in places like that, where we were in a transitional period—is that the reconciliation process has to be the first order of business, I would offer to you, sir. And how is that going to be managed? And then it has to be the Libyans who determine whatever assistance is required to aid in that process and to eventually get them on their feet, where they can take ownership and manage their external and internal security affairs.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you

Mr. Opitz.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to add my thanks to everybody. It's important to have the two serving members on this panel, and I'm very pleased, but I'd also like to thank our civilian friends who are here today, because you do tremendous work out there and it's oftentimes overlooked. You're very professional, and I'm hearing from your answers today that you have a tremendous depth of knowledge of what's going on on the ground. We're very appreciative of your sharing that with us today.

General, you're a psychic. I was going to ask you about lessons learned from your other missions.

[BGen Craig King]

I've been called a lot of things....

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That was on my mind, because we did talk about lessons learned from this mission, and we have in previous sessions talked about lessons learned from Afghanistan, and so forth. But all of these lessons learned came from somewhere. You talked about Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, and places like that, places you've been. Can you make that comparison between what you experienced on the ground then and what you see now, given the difference that we don't have boots on the ground here?

[BGen Craig King]

Right. Thanks, sir; that's a good question. I appreciate your invitation to provide my personal reflections. I'm always sort of careful when I do so, because I've fulfilled a number of jobs over the years.

When I was in Croatia, for example, as part of the United Nations force with the 2nd Battalion of my regiment I was a company commander, so I was seeing things from a very tactical perspective. We were in a very difficult environment, in particular the Medak pocket, where atrocities occurred. That has reinforced to me the absolute need for professionalism among military forces to prevent these kinds of things from happening.

At the same time, I was discouraged to hear the news of what happened to Mr. Gadhafi, as Barbara recounted. I was also very much encouraged to hear the public statements of the NTC on where they want to take their nation; the importance of the rule of law; the professionalization of their forces; and the language of unity and reconciliation in the statement on liberation day, Sunday, by the chairman of the NTC.

From my own personal reflections, having been through the experience in Croatia and seeing the ground in Libya, I'm hopeful. I really am. I think the Libyans, the National Transitional Council, and eventually the government they elect have to be given the opportunity and time to put those words into practice and be given the counsel that we have from the experiences we've had.

I would also say that it's a long process. We need to be prepared that it will go on for a time. When I was in Bosnia in the early part of the last decade, it took about four years before the police force in the particular cantons where I was situated was at a standard where it could go out and be a credible force in enforcing the laws of the country. So in terms of lessons learned that I've taken, we're on a journey here and we're only at the starting stages.

All the things Barbara has described about the challenges, and all of the programs that have to be put in place and managed through the auspices of a number of actors, are going to take time. In the initial stages--notwithstanding some stutters with things that happened on the ground there that everyone laments--the public statements being made are encouraging. For that reason I'm hopeful, as I'm sitting now at a strategic level.

[Ted Opitz, Conservative, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

As far as professionalizing their military, we can send in civilian police and groups like that, but just staying with the military for a moment, do you think we have a role to play in helping them professionalize--helping their forces learn and understand the military ethos as we understand it? Obviously it has to be in a context that relates to Libya. But do you see that as a process where we could use our Canadian Forces education system to benefit them and help lay down the foundations in an academic environment?

[BGen Craig King]

You raise a good point, sir. The Canadian Forces has a lot of capacity. But the last time I was in front of the committee I was talking about some of my experiences in Afghanistan, just as we were talking about the security force development. My own personal experience is that if you're talking about civilian police forces, it is best done civilian police force to civilian police force. Once you add a military aspect you kind of shade what police forces are all about, which is enforcing the laws of a country. A military component is something else.

So we do manage it, and sometimes we fulfill that role in the absence of any other alternative. But we've been careful to say that it is best done by the civilian authorities and experts.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you. Your time has expired.

Mr. Kellway.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Martin, in your presentation on page 7 you mention Canada aligning its assistance with the framework agreed with the NTC. I wonder if you can provide us with more details about that framework and what it is, in fact.

[Barbara Martin]

If I might, I'd like to defer to Marie, as it is her responsibility for that area.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Sure.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

I think what we have in mind is the framework of cooperation through the United Nations. I have referred to the various assessment missions that will happen between now and the end of this year. The main point is for the Libyans to identify clearly what their needs are. Once we know that, the international community will see how to address these needs and Canada will look at doing its part.

When we refer to a framework, it's the combination of all these assessments that will be done with the Libyans, so that we know what they want. They are in the lead in this process. We cannot decide for them.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you very much.

I take it then there is no bilateral agreement between Canada and the NTC with respect to how things will unfold in Libya over the next period of time.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

No. There were conversations, though, especially when Minister Bairdwas in Tripoli to discuss what Canada was ready to do on the weapons side of things. He also referred to the fact that we are ready to support the electoral process and the constitutional discussions and the participation of women. That was something that was difficult in particular, but there’s no bilateral agreement or such.

[Matthew Kellway, NDP, Beaches—East York, ON]

Thank you very much.

I was surprised to read, in light of comments we've heard today—and I think what we know through reading the media and what we can imagine from witnessing events over the last number of months—that in this context of tremendous instability, uncertainty, devastation of infrastructure on the ground, our Minister Baird went over to re-establish contacts and was accompanied, as the statement says, by four Canadian business organizations.

It seems to me—and it's a general comment and I don't mean to use this against anybody—that it seems to be, in a sense, a bit obvious that we're on a journey here and that we're only at the beginning of that journey. I worry and wonder about the priority that emerges from our minister taking four Canadian business organizations to be reintroduced to a new government that hasn't even really established itself. Can you comment on that for me, please?

[Barbara Martin]

I would say he took four business organizations and an NGO. He would have taken more people with him, but the logistics on the ground and the security requirements limited the number of people he could take, so I would underscore that.

The reality is that there are a number of Canadian companies with longstanding business engagements in Libya and a number of the contracts and the work they were undertaking in actual fact was contributing to the long-term development plans of the country. They were doing things—helping with the water pipelines, helping to build areas around the airport—that would facilitate the movement of people and the movement of goods as well. This business engagement is actually important to the revitalization of Libya's economy, going forward.

The other element to underscore is that Libya is fundamentally a very wealthy country. They are now at roughly 25% of the oil production of pre-conflict days. Libya had relied predominantly on its oil exports for this wealth. So being able to re-establish that capacity, for Libya to produce its oil and to export it, is critical for Libya to be able to build its own way forward.

What we're looking at is a mixed approach to Libya, helping it on those elements like the de-mining and the removal of unexploded ordinance immediately—things which endanger the people of Libya and their own ability to get their economy moving again—and then engaging with them on a business platform of mutual interest. But the market forces often determine the best allocation of resources. So it's a mixed approach to helping Libya stand on its feet again in the future.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Moving on, Ms. Gallant, you have the floor.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

To the witnesses, the NATO air strikes, as we've discussed before, were very accurate and precise. A fabulous job was done of minimizing any collateral damage. Were there any safeguards developed to prevent those civilian casualties?

[BGen Craig King]

I'll speak to that generally, ma'am, if that's all right.

We have a very elaborate process, which we refer to as targeting. That takes into account the definition of a legitimate military target and it does a very thorough assessment of collateral damage. I don't mean to dehumanize this in any way, but it takes into account the potential in a strike for civilian casualties and the expected degree of infrastructure damage we would cause by striking that target.

That process is run through a military filter to ensure the effort we apply is suitable for the target we are striking. It is run through a legal filter to ensure we're operating within the legal realm of our mandate. And it is subject to approvals at various levels in the chain of command by designated command authorities, ultimately under the NATO command of Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard, and in some cases back in Canada, where it's necessary.

You can appreciate that the details of that are not discussed in an open forum for reasons of operational security, but I can assure you.... One of the jobs I have is to make sure this process is very carefully managed, certainly from the Ottawa level, and those officers who are charged in positions of responsibility, be they operations or legal or intelligence or other, are similarly highly trained, highly professional, and very proficient.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

There have been some critical reports over the past couple of weeks claiming that Canada did not fill its share of the burden of the NATO military commitment in Libya. General King or Mr. Grinius, can you please describe for the committee how Canada not only lived up to but surpassed its NATO expectations in Operation Unified Protector?

[BGen Craig King]

I can certainly address that. Ma'am, I've got to tell you, I haven't heard any criticisms of the Canadian participation in the operation, or any suggestion that our contribution to the mission was insufficient in comparison to others.

The first point I'd like to make is that as we go into these alliance operations—and we've been in NATO from the outset—we approach these in a team environment where everyone contributes. Our contribution has been valued. The Secretary General has gone on the record highlighting Canada's role, and certainly by having General Bouchard in command, our role has been highlighted.

In terms of statistics, we flew 6% of all sorties that were flown, and a higher percentage, almost 9%, of all strike sorties flown. Those are ones that are delivering ordnance on the ground in Libya to enforce the UN Security Council resolution. We carried out a like number of air-to-air refuelling missions, dispensing scores of millions of pounds of fuel to keep other allies in the air. Our maritime contribution was something in the neighbourhood of 460-odd hailings, and a number of boardings to enforce the arms embargo.

As we've discussed with our allies, I think the consensus is that Canada has answered the call, that Canadian force of arms in this operation has been a significant contribution to the effectiveness of Operation Unified Protector, and it's for that reason, as I said at the outset, that we derive a lot of pride.

So I haven't heard anything....

Marius, did you want to add something?

[Marius Grinius, Director General, International Security Policy, Department of National Defence]

If I may, General King talked about the consultative process, etc. What has been, shall we say, somewhat different in this operation is the fact that the United States had deliberately said it would step back a bit and not necessarily lead the charge, as it has in many other operations—you just have to look at the numbers in Afghanistan, for instance. So we did see some of our NATO allies, particularly the United Kingdom and France and Italy, really step up in many different respects to take up that share, and certainly Canada was front and centre in so many different ways, as General King described.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I'd like to give my remaining time to Mr. Alexander.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

You don't have any remaining time. Your time has expired.

Mr. Alexander, it is your turn anyway.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

Obviously our thanks, our congratulations, our really heartfelt praise to all of you, and the men and women behind you, in Unified Protector and in all aspects of the mission. In many ways it has been a textbook success--to this point; we know that many of the harder issues only start to be fully visible today. Most of them are on the civilian side. We know that our counterparts on the foreign affairs committee and all of us in Parliament will continue to follow this issue.

I want to make three quick comments before asking you a couple of questions.

First, on the question of Gadhafi's demise, obviously our Prime Minister and our ministers have been very clear that we expect the NTC, their forces, to prosecute this campaign in accordance with the laws of war, to respect human rights, and to be accountable for their actions. Clearly in the chaos at Sirte something happened to Gadhafi that shouldn't have happened. The circumstances are still being clarified. We're all happy and satisfied that the NTC has agreed to investigate this. There will be international support for that effort, obviously, and we'll be watching what happens next.

On the question of extension, I just wanted to thank our witnesses for not speculating too much, because NATO has been very clear that the mission will end on Monday. There is a meeting today. There's obviously a request for some aspects of the mission to continue, but any assessment of those needs would have to be made by the staff inside Unified Protector, who are closest to these issues. For now, those of us who are around this table are not privy to those discussions. We'll just have to see. But we have our plan as of today, and that's an end of the mission on October 31, as agreed by Canada on October 21.

In the view of many of us around the table, I think perhaps the most important feature of this mission has been its success in avoiding civilian casualties. I really do think there is no person who deserves more credit for that than Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard himself, personally, with the responsibility that was on his shoulders and his staff.

I just wanted that to be on the record of this committee. It will probably be an example that is studied in military colleges and in “operational lessons learned” exercises for some time to come.

My question for you is about the police and the army. We are handing off to them, in effect. I know there are many questions, and there are assessments yet to be done, but what is our current Canadian assessment of the capabilities of the Libyan police, to the extent they exist, and the Libyan army? The NTC forces are irregular forces. Some of them are going to disband. There were regular forces, obviously with the imprint of Gadhafi on them. What's our assessment of the extent to which those institutions can play a role now?

[Barbara Martin]

I think an awful lot remains to be seen as to what will happen in the future, but I think some of the strongest indications are what is happening on the ground in Tripoli.

Tripoli is a relatively stable and safe environment right now. There have been some incidents. There have been some clashes between the militias--sort of power struggles--but when those incidents happen, the Libyan security authorities establish roadblocks within hours around the community in order to bring control. That signals a very significant degree of sophistication and capability.

So in the short term, they're not decimated in the way that, for example, the security forces in Afghanistan were. There is significant capability. There's also significant capability that switched its loyalty.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Right.

[Barbara Martin]

So it's a question of assessing how quickly they're able to unify command and build on what they have.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

My last question has two parts to it.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

You won't have time for two parts, Mr. Alexander.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Could you comment on the fate of our $2.2 billion that was released to the Libyan authorities? To what extent is it being used or made available under appropriate accountability frameworks?

Also, having a constitution within months is a very ambitious timeline. Is there a model on which the NTC has indicated it will be fashioning its constitution, or are they starting from scratch?

[Barbara Martin]

I'm not aware of a model on which they're basing it, so I can't comment on that.

On the $2.2 billion, the assets are available to the NTC for their direction. They will go into the transitional financial mechanism. The constraints imposed on the use of those funds were imposed by the UN Security Council sanctions committee, which permitted us to release the funds. Those are the mechanisms that are looking after those funds.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

We'll go to the third round.

Ms. Davies, you have five minutes.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you very much.

I want to come back to what you said, Ms. Martin, about the framework agreed upon with the NTC. I'm having some trouble with the vagueness of the replies. If, as the parliamentary secretary says, we have a successful textbook case here, then one would assume that part of it is looking forward as a military mission begins to come to an end. I can only imagine that there must be all kinds of plans laid for what we'll do. That's the question we have: what is Canada actually going to do from this point on?

We know the minister was there, and we know he took businesses with him. You've said it's important to have a reinvestment, and that's certainly understandable. When Marie Gervais-Vidricaire laid out the UN role, she specified very clearly that the UN would do this, other elements would do a social assessment, and some people were going to look at electoral functions. It seems that there is some specificity for other organizations or countries, but we don't yet have any understanding what it will be for Canada.

Can you give us any direction on what the focus will be? Will it be on building the military or the police? Will it be on civil society and women? I don't have a sense of where we're headed, from the answers you've given today.

[Barbara Martin]

Minister Baird announced, when he was in Tripoli, that we will be contributing $10 million to deal with the unexploded ordnance and weapons of mass destruction. That's a very clear priority for Canada's engagement in response to clear Libyan requests.

There were a number of other requests that the minister received at that time. They're still under consideration, so I can't speak publicly about them.

When we use the term “framework” we are talking about the plan and the priorities established by the Libyan authorities. They've made it very clear that they do not wish to have bilateral donors going in and driving their own agendas within Libya. They want to be in control of it. They don't even want the UN to drive that agenda. That is why they've said “Slow down. We need time to get our cabinet in place. Then you'll have the people with the authority to be able to tell you what our priorities are, and we would like you to be able to respond to them.” So when we're vague, it's because we're waiting for that process to play out.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

How long will that be? Do you have a sense of the timeframe?

[Barbara Martin]

They must form the new cabinet, what they call the transitional government, within 30 days. The expectations are that they will probably do that within about two weeks.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

If I may add, the UN-led process of assessing the needs with the Libyans will take a couple more months, unfortunately.

[Libby Davies, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I think you said the UN was making social assessments, so is Canada involved in that?

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

As I said, there's a total of ten assessment missions. They will include experts from the UN and in some cases from different countries. We have expressed an interest in being part of the assessment missions on public security and rule of law, as well as electoral and constitutional processes.

As Barbara said, we're maybe not as clear as we would like to be about exactly what we're going to do, because we need to know what the Libyans really need. We've been able to announce some specific things in the case of de-mining, MANPADS, and dangerous chemical or other non-conventional weapons, because there is clarity. The Libyans themselves identified those issues as priorities--the UN as well. So we know that we can move on those issues quickly. For the rest, we need to have a better idea.

There is a clear niche for Canada, whether it is in the area of training the police, or providing technical assistance for elections. We need to know exactly what is required.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

I'm sorry, the time has expired.

Mr. McKay.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

On the same line of questioning, there is obviously a concern about unexploded ordnance and weapons of mass destruction and things of that nature. There was an article in Agence France-Presse today. It talks about unused munitions, and it says:

“Months ago we warned the National Transition Council and NATO," of the danger.... Artillery shells of all calibres, anti-aircraft ammunition, heat-seeking missiles or others with Semtex explosive warheads, anti-tank missiles, Grad fragmentation rockets, aircraft bombs of 250, 500 and 900 kilograms—

And it goes on and on.

Is that your understanding of the facts?

[BGen Craig King]

Are you asking me, sir?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

I am. I'm very—

[BGen Craig King]

Sir, there are a lot of munitions in Libya. General Bouchard in his statement over the weekend alluded to the scope of the problem, and it is large. Colonel Gadhafi, before his demise, did a very good job of amassing quite an arsenal, and through a series of steps and processes that have been described we are coming to grips with that collectively as an international community.

So if you're asking me, sir, if the report you are reading is accurate, I fully believe it is.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Am I to understand that the NTC has said to countries like Canada, “Come in and deal with our unexploded ordnance and our weapons of mass destruction, but we'll take care of the munitions”, the unused munitions? In other words, do we have any direction with respect to those unused munitions?

[Barbara Martin]

There's a big difference between what they explicitly asked Canada to contribute to and their broader concern with a range of issues. The UN has actually had some very extensive conversations with them about munitions, the MANPADs and other weapons that are floating in the country.

Part of it is through the process of the demobilization of militia and trying to recapture the weapons that were being used in the conflict. There is very significant priority being put on the big picture.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

That's a conversation between the NTC and the UN on that part. The part Canada is picking up is the unexploded stuff and “weapons of mass destruction”. Thank you.

Have there been any applications by Canadian NGOs to participate in the reconstruction of Libya in any shape or form?

[Barbara Martin]

Yes, there is interest. A number of NGOs were in touch with us immediately.

We continue to have a travel advisory with respect to travel to Libya, recommending only that people go to Tripoli and the Benghazi area if they have essential business.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Do you think any Canadian NGO has been successful in securing any funding to do any particular projects?

[Barbara Martin]

I will defer to Marie.

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

On the de-mining side, just yesterday I met with a gentleman who works with GlobalMedic, which is a Canadian NGO, and he said they are part of the MAG effort, the Mines Advisory Group, which is already de-mining in Libya—

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Pardon me. Does the $2 million come out of DFAIT's budget, or does it come out of the military budget--or does it come out of CIDA's budget?

[Marie Gervais-Vidricaire]

It will be from the DFAIT budget. There are two programs, as I mentioned. All the non-conventional weapons efforts will come from the global partnership program, and the de-mining MANPAD issues will be addressed through our global peace and security fund.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I guess this question will be for Madam Martin or Madam Gervais-Vidricaire.

Some questions I think are akin to making a sow's ear out of a silk purse. People are surprised that the Government of Canada might be bringing over some business persons who want to begin to assist the new Libyan government with getting back on its feet to be able to fend for itself.

Isn't it in our national interest and our goal that we have a country that is somewhat friendly to democracy and that this fledgling government be self-sufficient and less reliant on international charity and more reliant on its own natural resources? Would you comment on that, please, from strictly a policy perspective?

[Barbara Martin]

Yes, I think you have articulated, extremely clearly and well, exactly what our longer-term goal is. Indeed, it is a Libya that is friendly, a democracy, and one with which we will have relationships on a basis of equality, going forward.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

Would it not be in keeping with Canada's desire to form international trade relations so that we can benefit not only Libya—and we have expended as a country some significant resources in helping that country become democratized—so that we see in the future a mutual gain in that trade, so we can somewhat in some way recoup some of our resources that we have spent?

[Barbara Martin]

Yes.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

I'll turn it over to Mr. Strahl.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

General King, you mentioned that there are 630 or so Canadian Forces personnel participating in the mission, which means there are 630 or so families here wondering when their family members might be home.

My question simply is if NATO decides to wrap up the mission on Monday, what's the timeline to get our men and women back to Canada?

[BGen Craig King]

Thanks, sir.

Concern for our families is a very high priority, one of the highest for us. I can answer your question briefly, as Barbara did the last one. It will be as soon as possible.

But yes, we've already started planning, reconnaissance has been done on the ground to see exactly what we have to do to get everybody recovered, so we're well postured to be able to act rapidly. We'll wait for the Government of Canada’s direction on that, and act once we have that direction. But it will happen very quickly. We're well practised in these kinds of things.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Excellent.

Obviously in some other missions, like Afghanistan, it's very complex. I would assume, because we're not in Libya, that it may be a more streamlined process.

[BGen Craig King]

There are certain advantages, in terms of the redeployment now. Clearly, air elements can self-deploy and redeploy, unlike army units that are dependent on strategic airlift. It's much the same sort of thing that we're doing to recover our assets from Afghanistan, as you were briefed in the last session.

But yes, there are some efficiencies we have now. And the scale of the mission is about a fifth of what we were putting into some of the other larger-scale missions, like Afghanistan. So there will be some time efficiencies as well, but it will happen very quickly, sir.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you very much.

That finishes the third round.

I have a few questions I want to get a little more clarification on.

We're talking about having to build a professional police force and a professional army within Libya. In the transition, how do we protect Canadian diplomats and Canadian aid workers involved, either through CIDA or through NGOs, during this time that they're on the ground? Has there been any thought given to that yet, especially as we talk about the withdrawal of all NATO forces?

[Barbara Martin]

Clearly, the protection of the Canadians deployed to the embassy is of critical interest to the Government of Canada, and indeed there is a comprehensive security package in place to ensure their security. Obviously I can't speak of the details of that, for operational reasons, but we are very confident that our people are well protected. And that would include any CIDA personnel deployed. At this point, there is no CIDA official deployed in our embassy.

The UN will have its own security package as well. It is not possible for the Government of Canada to provide security for NGOs and such. They will need to consider how they would be looking after their own security interests in the country, and there are a number of solutions they look at in order to address their own concerns.

[BGen Craig King]

Could I just add to that?

We're not seeing any specific threat right now to western folks in Libya that would cause us to have any concerns at this stage.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

One thing that we witnessed during the revolution is that there were a lot of Gadhafi forces, Libyan forces and police that switched sides. Now, don't they bring a level of professionalism and already have the training and the background and hopefully the common sense to be on the right side here, wanting to uphold the rule of law? Would that be a place to start, in developing this new police force and national military?

[Barbara Martin]

Certainly Libya has a solid foundation on which to build.

With regard to methods of operation, to what extent do people need to receive a better understanding of human rights issues, and how can those be respected in the performance of their police work? There is also the question of loyalty, and in our conversations with the NTC they have expressed as much concern about that sort of thing as we have. So the question is how they will move forward on that in order to ensure that the forces are transformed into ones that are appropriate for a new democratic state based on rule of law and respect for human rights.

[BGen Craig King]

I would just add that from my experience working with the Afghan national security forces, it starts with the leadership. That's the essential element.

The Libyans are also going to face other challenges as they develop their security forces. It's a tribal mosaic there, as I know you appreciate, sir. So how is that reflected in the makeup of the security forces, both the army and the police? These issues are going to have to be addressed by the Libyans, and they are issues that have applied in our experience in Afghanistan dealing with the Afghan forces, so we can expect that kind of thing. But start with the leaders, and things will go from there.

And as Barbara mentioned, the leadership has to be of the kind of calibre that would enforce the kinds of things that Chairman Jalil was talking about on Libya's liberation day: respect for the rule of law, reconciliation, tolerance, unity--all of these things.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Based on that, where we had pro-Gadhafi forces and now we want to reconcile and we want to get to unity, are the circumstances surrounding the death of Colonel Gadhafi going to undermine that reconciliation? I know it might be too soon to tell, but has there been any inclination so far?

[BGen Craig King]

That's a question we've asked specifically in light of recent allegations regarding the nature of that death. It is too early to tell right now, but clearly it exacerbates a circumstance in the country, as we've already discussed in terms of the way ahead.

I would say there is the potential there, sir, and we're watching that closely.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

Again, thanks for appearing today and for briefing us on the situation in Libya.

Please share with General Bouchard the comments you received today, as well as our congratulations on the great job they did, and how proud we are of all the men and women who are over there serving with the Royal Canadian Navy and the Royal Canadian Air Force, as well as everybody in the Canadian armed services who was deployed. They did a fantastic job, and I think it's really a feather in our cap. Under the leadership of General Bouchard we were able to integrate with and work alongside all our NATO allies and really carry a heavy burden in protecting all civilians in Libya and ultimately helping bring about the liberation of the country as well. So thank you.

Before we are dismissed, I just want to let everybody know that next week's agenda has been changed a bit, unfortunately, because witnesses we had hoped to have appear are not available. On Tuesday, General Vance, the director of staff of the Strategic Joint Staff, will be here. And on November 3 we'll have the CDS General Natynczyk, so that will give us an opportunity to talk to him and talk overall about readiness, which we're going to continue to study.

With that, I would suggest that the hearings we're going to have on CEFCOM and Canada Command be held during the week following break week. I'll just put off having the steering committee at this point in time, because we'll pretty much have things lined up. We'll do a steering committee once we get back.

Mr. McKay.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

Could the parliamentary secretary advise us where Bill C-15 and Bill C-16 are as far as when you expect to bring those forward goes?

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Mr. Alexander, do you know when those might be in the House?

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

They've been tabled, as you know. We have had consultations with both sides.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

You haven't with me.

[Chris Alexander, Conservative, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Well, we had a long conversation in an aircraft, John, and you have access to the legislation.

But we're pursuing an agreement to move forward expeditiously. We want to move on the shorter bill, to have all three readings at once, because it is time-sensitive. If we don't meet this December 2 deadline for entry into force of the law, we will be undermining, in effect, the constitutionality of the military justice system. And for the longer bill, because it was treated in the last Parliament, over two days in the House and five days in committee, we're hoping to have one speaker on each side at second reading, and then bring it to committee and try to be efficient with it in committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

Thank you.

I'll take a motion to adjourn.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

I so move.

[The Chair, Conservative, James Bezan]

We're out of here.