National Defence Committee on March 4th, 2014

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Couldn't we have a short answer? I'm sure all of the committee members are interested.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

We'll hear a very short answer.

[MGen David Millar]

Families are the lifeline for our members. Our spouses are the lifeline. They are here today.

We have enhanced our program tremendously. At our military family resource centres across the country we have education programs for our children to help them understand what mental illness is all about. Those programs have been so successful that they have had the effect of causing the parents to come forward to seek help. We have programs for our spouses at our military family resources centres. We have sent couples who have experienced mental health issues across all our military family resource centres to round tables. Yes, we are putting even greater focus on our families.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, General.

Members, we had budgeted 15 minutes to conduct some committee business at the end of our scheduled two hours, which we have lost. I'm asking for unanimous consent to continue questioning until the top of hour, then adjourn, and then to run over for just a few minutes to do....

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[Inaudible—Editor]

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

If there's time, five minutes at the top of the hour.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Okay? Thank you.

Mr. Chisu, you will begin the second round of questioning, please. You have five minutes.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for coming to testify to our committee.

I served in Afghanistan in combat. I will quickly go back to the concept of universality of service. You mentioned that it is very clear, except that you have a branch that does not have the universality of service, which is the cadet corps. The cadet corps allows the uniformed members to have, for example, an age limit of 65 instead of 60, and so on, and they are not rigorously physically tested.

Why I'm making these remarks is that I'm going through a transition, a transition in the military from the military to other branches of DND or to civilian life. I have a couple of very short questions.

First, on average, how long can a CF member be on the medical category list until you start the process of releasing them? Second, on a yearly average, how many CF members are on the medical category list? Also, how long does it take for a member to be discharged from the CF due to a medical or a requested release? I'm asking this about timing because it can be very long. The CF members are held in so-called holding platoons, and that is very much a deterrent to their morale. When I was serving in Meaford, they had a couple of suicides in these platoons.

Also, I have a question for Ms. Rigg. How many civilian DND personnel have a military background?

[MGen David Millar]

To start off, I'll ask Scott to address the medical aspects.

[Col Scott McLeod]

For the MELs, the time that somebody can have medical employment limitations, it can vary depending on the patient. It varies dramatically from one person to another, and there is no specific time limit that says you must be given a permanent restriction after a period of time.

The biggest thing we look for—and Dr. Jetly can expand on this—is stability in their care once they've actually plateaued and we know that it's the maximum level of care that can be delivered. For some people, that may be six months. For some people, it may be two, three, or even four years.

Also, then, how long it takes to release somebody also depends dramatically on what the situation is. For a lot of the cases where it's a complex-care case, it can be up to three years after the permanent category is assigned, to establish a transition plan for that individual and to make sure that they do transition into Veterans Affairs care and then into the civilian workforce as well.

As for the number of people currently in the Canadian Forces who have medical employment limitations, I don't have that number with me. The director of medical policy would be the one who would have to tell us that.

I believe that answers the questions, sir.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I have an additional question. How are you connecting this with the new recruiting standards that lately are lowering the physical standards in the Canadian Forces? Recruiting will affect the situation in the Canadian Forces in the long term. Nobody was asking about recruiting, but it is an important element in the Canadian Forces area.

[Col Scott McLeod]

From a health perspective, we have not changed our requirement that if somebody has an illness that is non-compliant with universality of service, they're not selected. That has not changed over the past several years. We've maintained that. From a physical fitness perspective or otherwise, I would have to defer on that, because that's not my area of responsibility.

[MGen David Millar]

From a physical fitness perspective, yes, the standards are lower. That is symptomatic of our demographics—of my boys, who are electronic wizards. We'll make you physically healthy and physically fit. We have warrior platoons at our boot camp to do that.

You would be familiar with that, sir, from when you went through boot camp.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Mr. Chisu. Your time has expired.

Ms. Michaud, please.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to begin by thanking the witnesses for their presentations. My first question is for Major General Millar.

Let us go back to the concept of universality of service, which has been discussed at length today. You say you are sure of that doctrine's benefits on soldiers. However, I think that prevents soldiers from obtaining assistance. It prevents them from seeking help for fear of being forced to leave the Canadian Armed Forces.

Do you think that modifying the universality of service principle could ensure that our soldiers who are recovering from a mental illness or a psychological injury would occupy positions that do not involve combat or deployment? Some positions within the forces do not require members to be constantly deployed.

I come from a military family. My father was always in administration. He never had to be deployed in his career. So that would be a possibility. I think this could have a major impact on the state of mind of our soldiers in the forces.

Could you briefly comment on that possibility?

[MGen David Millar]

As I said, I think it is important that all our military members have a good understanding of the available services, opportunities and benefits.

I feel that part of the stigma is that not all our military members understand what services are available from the medical and health services to help address the actual medical problem of mental illness. We need to have a greater awareness, so that people understand that a physical ailment and a mental ailment are not different and that we have the services, so that if they come forward, we can return them to work.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I have to interrupt you because my time is very limited.

My question is about the possibility of amending the universality of service principle. I understand that services are available. You promote them, and that is important. We want our soldiers to seek help. However, here is what I would really like to know. Are you planning on exploring the possibility of amending the concept of universality of service, so that soldiers recovering from a psychological injury can continue to occupy positions that do not require deployment? Is that a possibility you intend to explore? I would like a yes or no answer.

[MGen David Millar]

I think it would be more important to explore the benefits and programs provided by the Canadian Forces.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

So, for the time being, I will consider the answer to be no.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

The answer is no.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Exactly. That was also my understanding.

I want to go back to the issue of suicide in the forces.

My colleague, Mr. Harris, has already mentioned that there were no statistics on suicide cases among reservists. You said that you had limited information or that you had much older information on people who had been released from the forces, but who should normally be monitored for five years.

Do you have ways to determine how many people have experienced distress and attempted suicide unsuccessfully? Do you have an idea of what is happening, since this is a very clear sign of distress among our troops? Do you have any information on such cases?

[MGen David Millar]

Are you talking about soldiers who leave the Canadian Forces?

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Yes.

[Michel D. Doiron]

Are you talking about people who are still in the forces?

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I am talking about both the people who are in the forces and recently released members. I think the two go hand in hand. The Department of National Defence still has a responsibility towards those people, even if they now fall under the jurisdiction of Veterans Affairs Canada. That is at least my opinion.

That is basically why I am interested in both types of cases.