National Defence Committee on May 15th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Norlock]

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

We're ready to begin our business of the day. Pursuant to Standing Orders 110 and 111, the order in council appointment of Gary Walbourne to the position of ombudsman for the Department of National Defence has been referred to our committee.

The committee, according to standing orders, will examine the qualifications and competence of the appointee or nominee to perform the duties of the posts to which he or she has been appointed or nominated.

Welcome, Mr. Walbourne.

[Gary Walbourne, Ombudsman, National Defence and Canadian Forces Ombudsman]

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Norlock]

As usual, we'll begin with permitting you 10 minutes of introduction and statements, which will be followed by questions and answers.

We also welcome you, Mr. Gauthier.

Mr. Walbourne.

[Gary Walbourne]

Mr. Chair, committee, good morning. Thank you for inviting me here this morning.

As you know, I am new to the job or the role of the ombudsman for the Canadian Forces and Department of National Defence. The transition from my previous role as deputy veterans ombudsman has been a relatively smooth one, and I've had a number of occasions to meet with the senior leadership within the department.

As you may all be aware, the DND-Canadian Armed Forces ombudsman is the oldest federal ombudsman, and this model works very well. In all my meetings with the senior officials within the department there was a universal agreement that the office provides a vital service to the defence community writ large.

As you would expect, I'm in the process of kicking the tires and looking under the hood and getting an extensive review of the organization, and so far I like what I see. Will there be opportunity for tweaks and moves as we move forward? Definitely. This is just a part of continuous service improvement as we move forward.

That being said, I have been struck by the extent of the professionalism and the level of collaboration between my office and both the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces. I just want to reiterate that the release of a public report and the department's response to it is very rarely the starting point for addressing our recommendations or findings.

While attention is naturally drawn to the release of a report publicly, the reality is that in many cases identified or flagged issues and concerns are often tackled by the department and forces as soon as we bring them to their attention. The multi-level consultations enable timely resolution to issues.

Of course, much of what our office does is at the case level and the intent is very simple. We facilitate the resolution of issues at the lowest possible level. Some issues are relatively simple. Others are very complex and extremely exhaustive. The fact that uniformed members, DND civilians, and their families know that they can come to our office serves the defence community well.

Last week, as you are all aware, we honoured the Afghanistan mission. Some of the health impacts of that and other associated missions are very well understood by this committee. This office has been at the forefront in identifying areas for improvement in meeting the needs of our ill and injured Canadian Forces personnel.

The department and the forces themselves have taken unprecedented steps to adjust to the needs of soldiers and their families as we move forward.

Mr. Chair, in concluding my remarks I would like to add that while the harmonization and the transition of ill and injured Canadian Forces personnel to Veterans Affairs Canada's care or to civilian life is a priority for both the Department of National Defence and for Veterans Affairs. It is also a priority for both ombudsman' offices and I am working with the Veterans Affairs ombudsman in moving forward to try to find ways that we can also bring value to this.

With that, Mr. Chair, I would invite any questions the committee may have, and I'll introduce Mr. Alain Gauthier, who is my director general of operations, and he will assist. As a matter of fact, he holds most of the corporate knowledge at this point in time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Norlock]

Thank you very much for that.

I just mentioned to the committee Mr. Gauthier's name and thank you for giving his title and his position. I was just about to do that, so that not only the committee but the folks who might be looking or might be reading the blues would know who he is and why he is here today.

Thank you for that, Mr. Walbourne.

We'll begin the questioning, recognizing Ms. Gallant for 10 minutes.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Walbourne, as the new ombudsman at National Defence you will be participating in a number of investigations from across the spectrum on a wide range of issues. Within an organization as large as the Canadian Armed Forces, there are many issues.

Recently the Chief of the Defence Staff announced an external independent review of workplace policies and procedures in the Canadian Armed Forces as it relates to sexual assaults on personnel. In your opinion how will your office receive participating in this review?

[Gary Walbourne]

As we've said to both the chain of command and the minister's office, we are prepared to help. I believe the ombudsman's office brings a level of impartiality to any investigation. We have resources on the ground. We could be of great assistance.

I understand that the terms of reference for this committee are being created as we speak and again we have shown we are ready to help as required.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

You worked in this office previously, the office of the ombudsman?

[Gary Walbourne]

I was at Veterans Affairs.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

In the course of your work there, did veterans come to the ombudsman looking for help after having been sexually assaulted in the forces?

[Gary Walbourne]

I'm aware of a couple of cases.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

How were those cases dealt with?

[Gary Walbourne]

It depended on the circumstances of the case. I think one of them is still ongoing. In the other one some assistance was given to the individual, some medical attention they were looking for.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

So we have seen most recently with the doctor who was charged, that the government has directed the military to take this issue very seriously. In your capacity as ombudsman you will have women come to you because they are afraid. They know, having seen what happens to colleagues, that if they go to the military police or their superior officer, they risk their careers. Even though they're doing everything correctly in their trade, especially if it's a male-dominated trade, they'll be the ones being transferred.

So they will come to you, Mr. Walbourne, and how will you deal with a situation such as that?

[Gary Walbourne]

It'll be on a case-by-case basis. I think one of the issues we have to deal with is that there needs to be consequences for such action. There also needs to be an opportunity so that the person is not revictimized every time they encounter something along those lines.

If someone were being moved from one post to another before they were ready, before they needed to go, we could engage at that level. It would depend mostly on what the individual is looking for as a recourse. So it could take many avenues. Again it would depend on what the person was looking for.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Having experience with this issue in the Veterans Affairs ombudsman's office, would you have any suggestions to prevent this type of activity in the first place?

[Gary Walbourne]

I'm a firm believer that most solutions we look for come from education. I think it's got to start at the front line. I think it's a part of the recruitment process. It's part of the training process throughout the life of a military career.

I believe the senior chain of command in the department is taking a strong stance, and I'm glad to see they're moving forward aggressively, but I believe it's communication, education. People who experience these types of behaviour need to have an opportunity to go where they are not going to be revictimized.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Why do you want this job?

[Gary Walbourne]

Right now, I'm not sure.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Gary Walbourne]

I joke. Having been at Veterans Affairs I saw the tail end of what happened when soldiers came out ill and injured, and sometimes the struggle they had getting the services and benefits they desired and needed. Looking back at this organization, I believe there is a large gap in communication and education. I'll go back to it again and again. I think our office can play a big role. That's one reason I'd like to be there.

The other one is that I believe it's an opportunity for real change. When you listen to the senior chain of command—and I've had a chance to meet most of them—I believe there's a genuine desire to make some changes. I think we can be at the forefront of those changes, helping people get there. There's a wonderful opportunity here to make a lasting difference to how the Canadian Forces engage, employ, and deploy people.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

What approach did you take when leading an investigation at Veterans Affairs? What methods will you use at National Defence that you learned from there?

[Gary Walbourne]

At Veterans Affairs and it'll be the same thing here at CF, the first thing is that everything we do has to be evidence-based, because we need the conversation to be around the issue and not the collection of data.

The second big change we made when we were at Veterans Affairs was a collaborative approach, and I'll give you an example. When we did a review of the new Veterans Charter we brought in every advocacy group in the country. They had an opportunity to be educated by us because one of the gaps we found was that people did not clearly understand what they were talking about, and they were making assumptions based on partial information. I believe our role here is much the same. Although I know I'm an organizational ombudsman and have no advocacy role, other than the one for fairness, I believe we can educate and promote those types of things.

Those are two of the things we introduced with Mr. Parent at the Veterans Ombudsman's office. They stood us well. I think they're tried and true measures, and I think they'll work in each environment.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

While the issues at Veterans Affairs and National Defence do have some overlap, they are quite different departments and mandates, so as the new ombudsman at National Defence you'll have a very different role. What's your vision for the office of the ombudsman at National Defence?

[Gary Walbourne]

I hate to say I'm copying everything I did before, but it's a program that worked. My vision is easy. I would like to see this office looked upon as a centre of excellence. When people want to know how something works, or get educated or informed on something, I would like for us to be one of the first choices. I believe it's incumbent on us to increase awareness of programs, how things work inside the department, and increase the awareness of the office; educate the community, as I mentioned. I think at the end of the day it's bringing that lasting change. As one of the members of the committee was saying earlier, it's no good to keep putting band-aids on symptoms; we need to get to the root cause.