National Defence Committee on May 27th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Norlock]

Unfortunately, your response will have to wait.

I'll just mention to all the witnesses, as well as you, General, that should a question be posed to you that you don't have time to respond to, you may do so by contacting the clerk with a full response to any question that you may not have been able to answer. That way, the member and the committee will have benefit of that response.

Mr. Leung, you have five minutes.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for attending, General Lawson and staff.

I want to follow up on a question that Mr. Harris mentioned earlier. Could you please clarify what are the outstanding annual reports that you were supposed to present? Have these been given to the minister? I'm thinking more of the years between 2011 to 2013.

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

I will have to get back to you, Mr. Chair, with that data.

I'm not sure of the status of the most recent reports.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

Let's move on to another topic, and that has to do with how in Canada we pride ourselves on the equality of sexes and the equality of our diversity and our multiracial and multicultural society. I also understand that the military culture, the military structure itself, is an extremely well-defined structure. As such, it's very much a pinnacle, with a head, a chief, or a general who controls the entire structure.

In hearing your testimony, I feel that there is a lot of reactive response to the issue of sexual assault and sexual harassment. It's always.... When we punish these events, this is one way of dealing with it, but what I'd like to hear is, how do we look for and proactively handle this issue? What are we putting in place? What are your thoughts?

Because what has passed has passed; it's easy to say that, but what I mean is that we know what the issue is. We know that these things have been perpetrated, but then let's look at our side. Because we cannot recapture that time, but we can look forward to making this a better organization, a strong organization. Please share your views with us.

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

Thank you, Mr. Leung, and Mr. Chair.

I am in absolute agreement that being proactive as opposed to reactive is a far more comfortable place to be. In fact, about a month and a half before the articles came out in L'actualité and Maclean's, we had reacted to our most recent climate survey from 2012 that, although the indications were that it had receded tremendously in recent years, sexual harassment wasn't acceptable. I came out with my statement to my commanders and to all men and women in uniform that we needed to do better in this area. Also, given the indications that there might be some barriers there and some lack of standardization in the way we respond, I indicated that we needed to work in those areas as well.

In fact, the chiefs of defence before me had a list—I won't take the time to provide it to you—of proactive programs put in place: victims services programs in 2000; a harassment resolution policy in 2001; the members' assistance program in 2002; sexual misconduct reporting in 2008; and prevention of violence in the workplace. Each of these bolsters a healthier workplace and gets the chain of command directly involved in providing not only the sense of a healthy workplace but also one in which he and his subcommanders and non-commissioned officers provide the example.

[Chungsen Leung, Conservative, Willowdale, ON]

All right, let's follow on that line of thought.

I recognize the fact that for 12 years we've been engaged in Afghanistan, and in a combat role the military has a very different psyche about it. Now we've come out of that. We're going into a period of peacetime military activity.

How do we balance that? It's a very different military culture in a peacetime environment than it is in a combat situation. Perhaps you could share that with us too.

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

Thank you. I would like to think that is not the case, that the Chief of Defence and his key leaders back here, while developing our combat readiness and capabilities, were also able, with the support of others who were very much focused on military personnel and workplaces, to develop policies that increased the quality of that as well.

So I would reject a sense—and I know you're not putting it forward—that might come from anyone in the military that says we could be lax with the quality of our workplace and the nurturing of the workplace because we're at war.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Norlock]

Thank you very much, General.

Before we complete this round, General, after Mr. Harris' questioning, you may be excused, because you are scheduled to be here for the one hour.

Mr. Harris, for five minutes.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

I was about to talk about conviction rates of our military prosecutions under courts martial. In 12 charges of sexual assault in the last reported period there was only one finding of guilt. I think I'll explore that with the Judge Advocate General in the next hour because there may be some implications for military justice in that one.

But, first of all, you referred to the completion of an internal review. I want to ask you whether you could provide a copy of that internal review to the committee for our review, so that we could be up to speed as to where you are?

Is that acceptable?

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

Yes, we can do that, Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I'd also be interested in the statement that you gave in the last month or so, your statement to the chain of command with respect to sexual harassment. Could you give us that as well?

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

Yes, Mr. Harris.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thanks very much.

The other question I have is regarding the sexual harassment study you referred to. The Maclean's article refers to L'actualité having reviewed a 2012 study that shows—they said—that of 2,400 respondents, 9% of women and 0.3% of men claimed they were victims of sexual harassment or undesirable sexual contact in the last 12 months.

That seems to contradict what you said. Are we talking about two different reports here, and if so, why would there be such a startling difference in a matter of a year or so?

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

Actually, I'll get the chief of military personnel who gathered that data for me to speak to that. But just before I do, we are speaking about the same report. The study involved 2,400 respondents, and while 98.5% said they'd suffered no sexual harassment, one of the findings that I included in my opening statement was that there are indications that identifiable groups, such as women, have a higher incidence of sexual harassment, and 9% is an accurate figure.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Perhaps General Millar can deal with that again in the next hour, because we only have you for another minute or so.

You talked about changes being made. Again, another item you referred to was the report of the provost marshal's office in 2009 seeking to beef up attempts to get the military to understand how to report a sexual assault, including information about the support that might be available, and instructions on how to make such a report. That was felt necessary because it was apparently lacking, according to them.

The Maclean's and L'Actualité report suggests that in the recruitment process this is not dealt with properly. Can you comment on that?

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

I will. The recruitment process is the first chance we have to ensure that those great Canadians we bring into uniform are well enculturated in the discipline, ethics, morality that we require in the Canadian Armed Forces. So there are four groups of 40 minutes dealing with ethics, morale, equity, and sexual harassment. But that is only the start, as commanding officers must address this annually and capture that in a report. For instance, for the five people you see in front of us, during our professional military education as captains, majors, lieutenant commanders, and lieutenant colonels, when we get to command, all professional military education includes modules on this very thing that we're talking about, which ensures that they provide the type of workplace they need to provide.

In 2009, we recognized the need for standardization, because a lot of small units will not see a sexual assault in 10 years. What the provost marshal is talking about there is standardizing it, so that we would have a checklist to help commanding officers and subcommanders.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

In 2006 the military shut down an anonymous 1-800 line for victims of sexual harassment, a helpline that was then getting between 150 and 190 calls per year. Why did that happen?

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

The 1-800 number was folded into our member assistance program, and all those calls that used to go to that direct number are now handled among all calls that we receive. We found that to be very effective.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Norlock]

Thank you very much for that response.

The chair will use my prerogative and ask you to wait another 30 seconds by making a suggestion. Having come from the civilian enforcement side for 30 years and having worked with the military in my station in Pembroke, I note that there is a protocol between the military police and the civilian police when there are serious allegations.

I'd like to leave you with this thought. As we know, high profile cases tend to involve males, but in policing we noticed over the years that when you remove the stigma of reporting sexual assaults, there is a time period when the numbers go up and everybody thinks it's because there's an increase in it when in fact you are reducing the stigma, you are encouraging people...especially on the male side, as we've seen nationally with hockey players and those athletes in the sports world.

My respectful suggestion would be, especially in a male-dominated environment, where you suck it up if something bad happens, to understand that this is a new era. I think the people of Canada are increasingly demanding a reflection of our society within our military. So anything you can do from your leadership perspective to remove the stigma and to make sure that victims are no longer victimized by chains of command or the old way of doing things, whether it's hazing or however new members are welcome into units, whatever it is, we begin to cease those types of behaviours and really seriously look at them and say, “This is not the way a modern military acts.”

Thank you very much, General Lawson.

We will suspend for two or three minutes, and I would ask the General, when the onslaught of media come in, to try to usher them outside the door so we can question your subordinates.

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

I thank you for the nice words. Thank you very much members.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Norlock]

We will suspend.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rick Norlock]

We'll resume the meeting.

Mr. Harris was last questioner, so it's over to Mr. Chisu for five minutes.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, generals, for being here today and for your testimony on sexual assault in the military. It's an issue that bothers me personally too, having served for 24 years in the military—serving in the reserves, serving in the regular force, and serving in the cadet corps. Obviously what we see reported in this article and others is not making me very happy.

I would like to ask this question. What alternatives are there for a member in the Canadian Armed Forces when they are uncomfortable reporting a case of sexual assault to their chain of command?

[MGen David Millar, Chief of Military Personnel, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, sir, and thank you very much for your service as part of the Canadian Armed Forces.

We have many mechanisms of voice as part of our programs and procedures that allow members of the Canadian Armed Forces to voice their concerns no matter what the issue may be—sexual assault, sexual harassment, difficulties with the chain of command, or being uncomfortable with their workplace environment.

Over the years, and indeed the last two decades as a continuous-improvement organization, we have put in place the 1-800 member assistance program line, the 1-800 family information line, the direct line to any of our padres who are on base, and the direct line to any of the social workers we have at our military installations and wings. Always you can go to our medical officers.

As well, we actually have harassment advisers at each of our bases and wings, in each of our units, whom you can approach. We have workplace relations advisers on each of our bases as well. We also have a conflict resolution program at each of the bases and wings and regionally, and in NDHQ, where we have a 1-800 line for anonymous or even for separate...outside of the chain of command for our members to refer to.

Always we have our military police and our Judge Advocate General.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I understand that the military police are doing a fantastic job. There is no question about it. But what about the Chaplain General? A member of the forces will first see the padre with a complaint, so how do you react? In terms of morale, if you see many people going to the padre, that's an indication that something is going wrong.

Did you involve the Chaplain General in your internal review?