Evidence of meeting #34 for National Defence in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was norad.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute
Certainly just the raw fact of their rapid economic growth means that the potential for growing the military is always there. People have been talking about looking in the rear-view mirror and seeing China coming for a long time.
The trick is that they are approaching rapidly, but they are still very far away. There is no near-term strategic threat from China, but certainly they have the potential to become a strategic challenger to the United States.
Liberal
Arnold Chan Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Thank you.
To follow up on Mr. Norlock's point, I think the real area is the South China Sea.
Mr. Harris raised this a little earlier. I want to look at the issue of cyber-attacks and cyber-espionage, which of course is increasingly worrisome for us here in Canada. We recently saw what likely was a successful attack from the nation you were referring to in shutting down certain departments, including the CRA, completely through a successful attack on our websites.
Is this ultimately a concern for the Americans, particularly given that the U.S. military has created a separate cyber-command system, which is quite distinct from the Canadian approach? Of course, we continue to maintain our cyber-security apparatus through Public Safety. Do you have any comments or concerns in terms of confidence in our cyber-security?
LGen George Macdonald
This is a huge issue. I don't think we can rest on our laurels at all, citing what success we may have enjoyed so far to defend against a cyber-attack.
When I was in Colorado Springs, the U.S. Space Command at the time was given the responsibility for computer network operations, which has evolved to information operations and now cyber issues, cyber defence and attack. That's over a very short period of 12 or 13 years. It's gone from being asked what's an information operations action to everybody knowing the importance and significance of our cyber vulnerability.
We in Canada, I think, are somewhat behind the eight ball here. We haven't progressed as much as the Americans have in cyber-command. The interconnectedness of our economies and our infrastructure should be a wake-up call, I think, for us to take very seriously the potential of a debilitating attack.
I briefly saw an article this morning saying that by 2025 cyber-attacks could cause significant deaths, with all the concomitant impacts of a significant and well-directed attack.
Liberal
Fellow, Canadian Defence and Foreign Affairs Institute
I am not a cyber expert by any means, but I am certainly.... It's very different from other kinds of defence and security issues. Many of those other things take five, ten, or fifteen years from the time we first identify them as a potential threat to the need to respond to them.
Cyber is something that is a continual evolution. For every measure you undertake, a countermeasure can readily be developed to respond to it. I think it's the kind of thing that requires an enormous and/or costly continuous effort to respond to.
I don't know that there's any obvious basis for a much closer coordination with the Americans on this. We have clearly started out on separate tracks, and there are good reasons to maintain a separate approach, but there are probably plenty of ways in which there could be ad hoc cooperation, where you'd know about the potential for a certain kind of attack and if there's a way to even model your response on what the Americans do or at least share intelligence about that kind of thing.
Liberal
Arnold Chan Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
General Macdonald, I want to follow up on the point about the interaction between DND staff and CCIRC. Do you see a potential problem with respect to cross-mandates between these two organizations?
LGen George Macdonald
I can't speak from recent experience, but the simple answer would be no. They cooperate and recognize each other's mandates. If anything, they're a synergistic relationship.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Peter Kent
Thank you very much, General and Doctor, for your presentations today. It provides great grist for the mill in our study of the defence of North America.
Colleagues, I'll remind you that on Tuesday our regular committee meeting will deal with Canada's response to ISIL. We'll be briefed by officials from the Department of National Defence. Because of the importance of the information that will be shared with the committee, we will be sitting in Centre Block in room 253-D.
This meeting is now adjourned.