National Defence Committee on Nov. 18th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Good afternoon, colleagues.

As you see by the orders of the day we are gathered today for a briefing on Canada's current naval situation renewal and modernization.

We have two witnesses before us this afternoon from the Department of National Defence: Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, commander, Royal Canadian Navy; and Chief Petty Officer Tom Riefesel, command chief petty officer, Royal Canadian Navy.

Thank you, gentlemen, for joining us here today.

Admiral, may we have your opening remarks, please.

[Vice-Admiral Mark Norman, Commander, Royal Canadian Navy, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, members of the committee.

Good afternoon, everyone.

On behalf of the Royal Canadian Navy's command chief petty officer, Tom Riefesel, with me today, and the rest of the uniformed and civilian members of the Royal Canadian Navy, I thank you for the opportunity to appear before this committee.

Today I intend, as we say in the navy, to put a fix on the chart and to provide you with an update on the current readiness of the RCN. I am pleased to say at the outset that we are most definitely on track.

We are making excellent headway on the important modernization and renewal program that we have embarked upon. Although we have encountered some challenges, we have a comprehensive plan in place to tackle those challenges head-on, and we are executing that plan.

My intention this afternoon is to deliver my remarks within the framework of my four command priorities. These are: ensuring excellence in operations at sea; enabling the transition to the future fleet; evolving the business of our business; and finally, energizing the institution.

Excellence in operations is the ultimate measure by which all fighting organizations are judged. Our sailors and our ships demonstrate excellence at sea on a daily basis; at home, in all three oceans; and abroad.

This summer it was clear that the RCN is well on its way to becoming an Arctic navy rather than just a northern navy, with capabilities and skills to operate persistently in the High Arctic. To that end, HMCS Kingston was part of the whole-of-government team that located the lost Franklin vessel, HMS Erebus.

At the same time, HMCS Shawinigan travelled further north than any RCN vessel has ever done before.

To the south, one of our submarines, HMCS Victoria spent much of this summer in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands at RIMPAC, the world's largest maritime exercise. Exercises such as RIMPAC develop and strengthen ties among our defence and security partners. Victoria was a formidable foe, sharpening the skills of the allied fleet in a variety of complex war-fighting scenarios.

Victoria also joined Operation Caribbe, the campaign to combat illicit trafficking, operating in the eastern Pacific. She worked closely alongside several of our Kingston-class maritime coastal defence vessels that have stepped up to the plate this year and delivered real strategic effect, both domestically and internationally.

We're also encouraged by the fact that the first of our modernized Halifax-class frigates will soon be ready to deploy in support of government objectives. The Halifax-class modernization project is truly the bridge to the future fleet that Canada needs. This roughly $4.5 billion project is firmly on track to be completed on time and on budget.

As this committee no doubt recognizes, the fleet of today represents decisions of nearly 50 years ago and the fleet that will serve the Prime Minister and the people of Canada in 2050 will be defined by decisions made today. The retirement of HMCS Protecteur, Preserver, Iroquois, and Algonquin from active service was an essential step toward the introduction of new ships and capabilities to be delivered through the national shipbuilding procurement strategy.

Making these decisions will allow the Royal Canadian Navy to align our human and financial resources to invest in our future.

It's a future well within our sights thanks to the effectiveness of the modernized frigates, our submarine, and our coastal defence vessels, these capabilities that I have described as our bridge to the future.

In addition, all three of the major shipbuilding projects are right now in funded project definition. We look forward to seeing steel cut on the Harry DeWolf-class Arctic offshore patrol ships in mid-2015. It will be followed by the Queenston-class joint support ship, and in the longer term, the Canadian surface combatant, both now moving through key project milestones.

All these programs, along with the modernized Aurora maritime patrol aircraft, and the new Cyclone maritime helicopter, which will soon be integrated into fleet service, will truly take the RCN to the next level of overall war-fighting capabilities.

Certainly our transformation is not just occurring on the waterfront. As you may be aware, the RCN is now implementing a plan to navigate through its most intensive and comprehensive institutional renewal in half a century.

The RCN executive plan sets the conditions for our successful transformation, one which touches upon all elements of our fleet and its structure. We've made great progress executing on that plan, evolving our governance structures, our training systems, and our ship crewing models, to name just a few. We've emerged as a smarter, more efficient, and more focused organization, poised to embrace the next two decades of a nearly continuous evolution and introduction of new capability. It is very much an exciting time to be leading the Royal Canadian Navy.

I'm energized for the future, but not just because of the exciting new equipment coming to the waterfront. I am energized every day by the incredible work of our sailors, regular force and reserve, and by the families who support them. I'm energized also by our civilian workforce, those who get our ships to sea and keep them there. Today, I'm proud to say that we are more one navy than ever before in my career.

In conclusion, the Royal Canadian Navy is on track.

We continue to deliver strategic effect at sea and ashore for Canadians, while successfully negotiating through a decades-long period of change and modernization. We are able to achieve this balance because we have a plan in place.

Our plan will ensure that our people remain “ready aye ready” to embrace the opportunities of sustaining the navy of today and preparing it for tomorrow.

Thank you. Merci, Mr. Chairman.

Members of the committee, I look forward to answering your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Admiral Norman.

We'll proceed now with our first round of questioning, in seven-minute slots.

Mr. Williamson, please.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Chair.

Admiral, it's nice to have you here. Thank you.

Could you speak to the importance of the Arctic in the navy as well as what the navy is doing there, or potentially could be doing in the Arctic?

[VAdm Mark Norman]

We see the Arctic as hugely important, not just for the navy, but for Canada looking forward. The Arctic represents a fundamentally maritime operating environment. It is defined by the ocean; therefore, we see it as a key area for us to be looking forward to operating in over the years and decades ahead.

Obviously, the Arctic offshore patrol ships will play a key role in enabling the RCN, with its other government partners, in opening up our ability to operate and sustain operations in the High Arctic. We've had great success over the preceding years through a series of operations and exercises, cooperating with our coast guard and other government partners in the Operation Nanook series, in Operation QIMMIQ and other operations as recently as just a few months ago.

As we look farther into the future and farther into the north, we recognize that one of the key challenges moving forward is sustainability. We're excited by the opportunity to establish a refuelling facility in Nanisivik, which will allow us to stage ourselves and reach even farther into the north.

I think it would be useful to look to the north as an area of potential development and security challenge—not necessarily security in a true military sense, but security in a broader sense—as we look to the challenges of increased activity in the north. We look at the increased rate of both transit shipping and destination shipping, where we're starting to see levels of activity in the last few years that are well beyond those of the years preceding. It is fair to say that what we'll see over the next three decades in terms of increased activity and growth could, in fact, exceed the level of activity of the preceding three centuries. That's the pace that we anticipate we're going to see in the north.

It's not just about the ships. It's not just about forward operating capability. It's also about new competencies and new procedures. We're looking to the experiences of our coast guard partners with respect to how we can sustain deployed activity in the north, looking at new crewing models, new ways of maintaining a visible presence, a Canadian flag, in essence, in that vast expanse that's so important to us.

We'll also look to the fact that the north, and the Canadian Arctic in particular, is an area that is defined not just by its geography or its oceanography, but also by the politics surrounding expansion in the Arctic. The work of the Arctic Council, the work of our partners in that council, is key to our building not just military capability, but the ability to operate and sustain ourselves, as I've indicated.

I think there are many lessons we can draw from international maritime law and international regulation associated with everything from environmental legislation to safety to issues surrounding contested water space that are going to affect how we see ourselves operating in 2020, 2025 right through to 2050 in the High Arctic.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

You touched briefly on the coast guard. Could you describe to us or explain to us briefly how the Royal Canadian Navy supports and works with the coast guard?

[VAdm Mark Norman]

We work together almost seamlessly in the regions assigned to both the RCN and the coast guard in search and rescue and other routine activities. In many cases our headquarters are, if not co-located, certainly in the same community. The commanders responsible for the regions across the country work very closely together.

At the tactical level, in terms of interoperability, the two organizations work together frequently on everything from counter-narcotics to search and rescue to routine surveillance. It really is a very powerful partnership. We're looking to the coast guard as a partner in developing our Arctic competencies as we learn from their experience. They truly are the leaders in Canada.

The last thing I would say is that on a day-to-day, 24-7 basis, the coast guard and other government departments, the RCMP, border services, all work together, integrated in the maritime security operation centres that are located on both coasts and in the Great Lakes. They're great partnerships.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I'm going to change tracks here a little bit. I see that the Victoria-class submarines will reach steady state sometime later this year or next year. Is that right?

I have a broad question for you and I'd like to hear the answer. Why is it important for Canada to have a number of submarines as part of its navy?

[VAdm Mark Norman]

The way I characterize the submarine capability and its importance to Canadians is to draw a parallel to what I think is something people can relate to in the context of ground operations. If somebody in the army were to talk about taking and holding ground, I think there would be an intuitive sense of understanding of what that meant.

In a maritime context, there are really only two ways to take and control water space. One is to mine it. The second is to put a submarine in it.

When we think about the requirement for Canada to exercise absolute sovereign control over a piece of water space, whether it's here in our own territorial waters or perhaps somewhere else in a conflict situation, this is where a submarine becomes an incredibly powerful capability. There's nothing else that can do that in a maritime domain. They truly are the dominant weapon system of naval operations.

As for the specifics of the capabilities that we have in the Victoria class, we're very pleased with where we are now. It's been a long road getting there, but we now have three of our four boats in the water, which is where we planned to be. That's our characterization of “steady state”. They're at varying degrees of operational availability.

We're certainly pleased with the great work that both Victoria and Windsor have done this year, with a combined 253 days at sea between those two vessels in 2014. Now, with the Chicoutimi back in the water, she's starting her six-year operational cycle. We're in the process of executing some very demanding technical trials as we speak. In fact, she's at sea today executing those technical trials.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Very good.

Would you say that working as a submariner is one of the toughest jobs in the navy?

[VAdm Mark Norman]

I have been there and I'm sure Tom's been there a few times as well. It is an incredibly demanding environment to operate in.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

I've heard that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

That's time, Mr. Williamson.

Mr. Harris, please.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for coming today, Vice-Admiral Norman and Chief Petty Officer Riefesel.

I appreciate your presentation. I noted the enthusiasm with which you spoke about the future of the navy. I'm sure you are very proud of it, and we're proud of the work you do and the service you provide.

But I note, Vice-Admiral, that in the business plan of the navy for 2014-17 there was a little less enthusiasm in referring to the 15.7% budget reductions and the cumulative effects on various programs, and to the buying power and flexibility being eroded by this, much due to the cumulative effects of that. In an accompanying letter, you're quoted as saying this on December 13, 2013, “Limited resources, financial and human, and competing priorities continue to test our ability to most effectively and efficiently deliver our mandate.”

This of course was echoed by the Chief Review Services in his report released on October 24, which says that in “recent years there has been a steady decline in the RCN's ability to achieve the required levels of readiness, to the point that it is currently challenged to meet...readiness requirements.”

Can I ask you how budget cuts have affected the navy's readiness and which elements of the navy in particular? Would it be training, staffing, or procurement that has been most affected by these cuts?

[VAdm Mark Norman]

I'm just making a few notes, Mr. Harris, so that I can properly address the elements of your question.

Let me start by saying that there's no question that the RCN, all elements of the Canadian Forces, government, and Canadians writ large have challenges. It is a constant requirement of senior leaders and managers like me to balance the resources available to us to do all of the things that we know we must do and that we would want to do with our organization, or with our personal finances for that matter.

With respect to the issue of resource pressures, how we manage them and what the impact is, I would say that I see the responsibility to address these as falling into two categories. One is the obligation to extract every bit of value we can from the resources we're given, both financial and human, and to ensure that we are optimizing the utility of those resources. At the same time, it's identifying where we have pressures and to seek, where possible, relief to those pressures. I'll come back to that second issue, but I'd like to speak to the first one for a moment.

One of the significant drivers to our internal business modernization—“evolving the business of our business”, as I refer to it in my priorities—is to help address the primary area of responsibility, which is to squeeze out, eke out, every bit of possible efficiency we can from our organization. We're seeing great progress in that regard. We're seeing enormous strides in terms of how we can make better use of our training system, how we can make better use of our crewing, how we can eke out every opportunity we can for every day at sea. That most valuable commodity—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Sir, perhaps I can interrupt. I realize that you're trying to do your best, but my question was specifically on whether or not these cuts have affected the readiness. I don't know if you're addressing the readiness at this point.

You've expressed some concern about it, and the Chief Review Services staff did. I'm wondering if you could be specific about that, as I don't have very much time, I'm afraid.

[VAdm Mark Norman]

To the specifics of the pressures, first of all, I'd like to say that the 15.7%, as it was characterized in the document, is a cumulative number. It's not a reflection of direct cuts. In fact, part of that number is a result of the pressures resulting from fixed costs going up and a number of costs that we're having to absorb. So it's not so much specifically related to cuts as a combination of things. It refers to a loss in flexibility.

Fundamentally, the challenge is that fixed costs are going up while the money available for discretionary expenditure is under pressure. That's what that was referring to.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Do we have ships tied up that would otherwise be out to sea because of the cost of fuel or other costs associated with that?

[VAdm Mark Norman]

We have a number of ships tied up right now because of the ongoing modernization. What we've been able to do is to leverage the fact that those ships are in a state of modernization; to reactivate, for example, four of the maritime coastal defence vessels; to reallocate money from some of the divestment decisions that were announced earlier; and to put it into the return of those modernized ships coming back into the fleet.

To your specific question of readiness, fundamentally, on a ship-for-ship basis, HMCS Toronto, deployed today in the Mediterranean as part of Operation Reassurance, is as ready as any ship previous to her two years ago, three years ago, ten years ago. On a ship-to-ship, sailor-per-sailor basis, that deployed readiness is no different from what it was previously. Where you're seeing a difference is in the bench strength supporting that deployed ship. At the moment, much of that is a direct function of the removal from service of the frigates in particular to execute their modernization.

In that context, we've been able to take some risk in terms of the non-availability of those frigates and apply those resources to other capabilities. I mentioned the maritime coastal defence vessels as a great example of where we've been able to surge that capability in the short term.

The issue of maintaining competency as a component of readiness—it is not exclusively the only driver of readiness—is an ongoing challenge. The most significant thing we've done in the last two years is to re-engineer how we train our sailors at sea so that we make the most use, the optimum use, of every sea day we have. That's required us to move sailors around more frequently, but we're doing it in order to maintain those competencies so that in the next couple of years, when the frigates are back into operational service, we can transition smoothly knowing that we've bridged that gap to the greatest extent possible.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Do you do that by double-bunking on board the ships?

[VAdm Mark Norman]

No, there's no double-bunking going on at all. For example, on training deployments we will fly people in and out of different locations, which we wouldn't traditionally have done. We would have left one crew in for an exercise. Now we may fly people in and out in order to give as many people as we possibly can exposure to that training opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Mr. Harris, thank you.

Mr. Bezan, go ahead, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank both Admiral Norman and Chief Petty Officer Riefesel for being with us today. The work you're doing in the navy is incredibly important. The Royal Canadian Navy is continuing to modernize and to do great work in multiple operations around the world. You just mentioned the work we're doing as part of the NATO Reassurance package and the NATO maritime task force.

I know we were just participating in some Black Sea operations as well. Can you touch on that briefly? What interoperability lessons were learned working with some new partners and probably some old allies that we haven't been in exercises with for some time?

[VAdm Mark Norman]

One of the hallmarks of NATO—and obviously I will speak to the maritime domain explicitly, but it applies to all the domains—is the very issue of interoperability, as you indicated in your question. Certainly the ability of Canada or any other country—but we're talking about Canada—to train, generate, and then deploy a ship that can seamlessly integrate into a NATO battle group or a U.S.-led battle group of whatever type is an incredibly powerful and flexible capability to have.

In the deployment of Toronto, you saw a couple of things. First of all, having the ship forward deployed in the first place represented a strategic decision, a real representation of forethought. We didn't know exactly what might or might not happen, but we knew we were going to need a reactive capability in that eastern Mediterranean Gulf region.

So, that's the first thing. To be able to redeploy the ship in very short order speaks to the flexibility of the capability itself and, in essence, to the value of forward deployed sea power to be able to react at fairly short notice. Then there is the ability to actually integrate into a NATO command structure that is pre-established, incredibly flexible, and adaptive. Having a Canadian warship in the Black Sea for the first time in over 20 years—22 or 23 years—was a significant event in and of itself, demonstrating the very solidarity that we were there to demonstrate. We worked with the U.S., Spanish, and other partners in a fully integrated battle picture, with fully integrated procedures, communications, and everything. Being able to work with some new partners, some emerging partners, and to, in essence, export our competencies at basic and intermediate levels to bring the ships and those sailors into fairly basic exercises is a very powerful indication not just of technical competence and tactical ability but, I think, of strategic solidarity.

I would like to go back to a previous question on readiness. As it relates to the events themselves that were reported in the media, I would simply say that as the admiral responsible for the calibre, the quality, and the readiness of that ship and her crew, prior to the deployment, I expressed complete confidence in the readiness of that crew and the materiel state of the ship. I indicated that to Minister Nicholson when the events transpired, and I stand by the fact that not only am I proud of how that ship is conducting itself but I have absolute confidence in her readiness as a front-line war-fighting capability for Canada.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

Can we venture a little bit into the capability gaps that currently exist as we transition into the new fleet? Of course, the auxiliary oil replenishment vessels have been retired, and there is a change in having control and command off destroyers, moving into the frigates, especially with the modernized frigates. Many of us on the committee had the chance to be on the HMCS Winnipeg. She was just about to come out of dock.

Can you talk about how you're dealing with that, not only with the transition on the equipment side but also about how you're dealing with the human resource side, with our sailors?