National Defence Committee on Nov. 25th, 2014

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Good afternoon, colleagues.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(5), we're considering supplementary estimates (B) for 2014-15, vote 1b under Communications Security Establishment, vote 1b under Military Police Complaints Commission, and votes 1b and 10b under National Defence, referred to this committee on Wednesday, November 5, 2014.

With us today is the Minister of National Defence, the Honourable Rob Nicholson, PC, MP.

Minister, thank you very much for being with us today.

As witnesses, from the Department of National Defence, we have Richard Fadden, Deputy Minister; Lieutenant-General Guy Thibault, vice chief of the defence staff; Rear-Admiral Patrick Finn, chief of staff of the materiel group; Kevin Lindsey, assistant deputy minister, chief financial officer; and Jaime Pitfield, assistant deputy minister, infrastructure and environment.

From the Communications Security Establishment, we have John Forster, deputy head and chief.

Mr. Nicholson, please make your opening remarks, sir.

[The Honourable Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Rob Nicholson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. It's an honour for me to be here today to discuss the supplementary estimates (B) for the year 2014-15.

I am joined today by Mr. Richard Fadden, deputy minister of National Defence; Mr. John Forster, chief of the Communications Security Establishment; Lieutenant-General Guy Thibault, vice chief of the defence staff; Mr. Kevin Lindsey, assistant deputy minister of finance and corporate services; and Rear-Admiral Patrick Finn, chief of staff of the materiel group.

Let me start by saying that I remain greatly impressed by the work of the Canadian Armed Forces and the employees of the Department of National Defence every single day. The entire defence team does incredible work on behalf of Canada. The unique challenges of such a large department are obvious. The breadth of our responsibilities and the efforts they require can be extremely complex.

Mr. Chair, let me turn to the specifics of supplementary estimates (B) before us today. I assure you that National Defence continues to exercise strong fiscal management and careful stewardship of its resources. As such, we are maximizing the use of every dollar, making concerted efforts to support the government's goal of returning to a balanced budget in 2015.

In supplementary estimates, we are requesting just over $913 million in new appropriations. At the heart of these estimates is the government's continuing commitment to ensure that the men and women of the Canadian Armed Forces have the right equipment to do the difficult tasks they are asked to perform. Of this amount, $652 million will go to the sustainment and operational readiness of the Canadian Armed Forces in support of the ongoing implementation of our foundational defence policy, the Canada First defence strategy.

This amount includes the following: sustaining the operational requirements of the Chinook helicopter; modernizing our fleet of Halifax-class frigates and Victoria-class submarines; Aurora maritime patrol aircraft; light armoured vehicles; infrastructure, maintenance, and repair; training; and personnel support.

In addition, National Defence is playing its rightful part as custodians of the environment. We are requesting funding of $55 million related to the assessment, management, and remediation of federal contaminated sites to be carried out under the federal contaminated sites action plan. We're also requesting $15 million in funding for the reinvestment of revenues from the sale or transfer of real property. This relates to the reinvestment of revenues from the sale of the Downsview Park and Stanley Greene properties in Toronto.

Mr. Chair, another important item regards a new program for which we are asking funding of approximately $700,000. This is the compensation for employers of reservists program.

Reservists are playing a larger role in meeting the operational needs and challenges of the Canadian Armed Forces.

We rely on the support of employers and the business community when their reservist employees are released for military duty. Employers, of course, wish to support their employees as they serve Canada, but it has become clear that some form of compensation is necessary. ln budget 2012, the government announced that it would create a new program to help offset employers' costs, and the compensation for employers of reservists program delivers on that commitment.

Mr. Chair, of the funds requested, we are offsetting $37 million in net transfers with other government departments. The bulk of this, $28.6 million, is for the assessment, management, and remediation of federal contaminated sites. Other transfers to National Defence involve funds for research, as well as science and technology support and logistical services. This reduces our total request for new funding to $876 million. If approved, these funds would raise the authorities of the department to roughly $19.8 billion to date, up from approximately $18.9 billion.

Mr. Chair, as I described, the majority of this new funding will go towards sustainment and the operational readiness of the Canadian Armed Forces in support of the implementation of the Canada First defence strategy, and would allow us to support new operations. Indeed, the turmoil that we see in both Ukraine and Iraq amply demonstrates the strong need for the Canadian Armed Forces to be ready to answer the call of duty and to contribute to international peace and stability.

These two international conflicts have prompted two major Canadian Armed Forces operations. Operation Reassurance supports NATO assurance measures in Europe through the provision of military capabilities for training, exercises, demonstrations, and assigned NATO tasks, in response to the Putin regime's military aggression in the region. Canadian Armed Forces are contributing to operational planning at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe, and our soldiers have routinely taken part in NATO training exercises to strengthen interoperability with our NATO allies.

As you know, HMCS Toronto is currently operating under Standing NATO Maritime Group 2 in the Mediterranean Sea, and the air task force is deployed to Lithuania, helping to safeguard NATO European airspace under the Baltic air policing mission.

These activities are in addition to providing financial, humanitarian, and non-lethal military support. Mr. Chair, this year, we have also witnessed the emergence of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL, which is a clear threat to local, regional, and international security. This terrorist group represents a direct threat. They have issued calls for targeted attacks against several countries, including Canada.

Several months ago, we made the decision that we could not simply stand by. The government announced our participation in Operation Impact, the Canadian Armed Forces support to the international coalition assisting security forces in the Republic of Iraq fighting against ISIL. Canada has contributed six CF-18 Hornets, two CP-140 Auroras, and one Polaris aerial refueller to aid in air strikes aimed at destroying ISIL's infrastructure and equipment, denying the terrorists the military means to attack Iraqi security forces or coalition assets.

Canada has already conducted several successful missions, which have significantly reduced ISIL's military capabilities. Additionally, almost 600 Canadian Armed Forces personnel are deployed on Operation Impact, contributing to the air strikes, as well as through support elements such as command and control, medical personnel, and logistics. Canada has provided more than $28 million to respond to humanitarian needs in Iraq, and we will continue to monitor and assess the situation and provide further assistance alongside our allies as needed.

Mr. Chair, there will be incremental costs to this mission, as there are for any mission. We will report the exact costs for Operation Impact through existing Parliamentary mechanisms once they are finalized. But as reports from Human Rights Watch and others show, there is a human cost to doing nothing. This terrorist group is committing mass atrocities, including the abduction, torture, and enslaving of innocent women and children. I know that our men and women in uniform will continue to demonstrate operational excellence as Canada stands with our coalition partners against the violence of ISIL.

I can assure you that as we move forward in this fiscal year, the department will continue to monitor our fiscal requirements, continue to ensure value for taxpayer dollars, and continue to serve the people of Canada to the highest possible standard, while keeping our country safe.

I am sure the committee will have questions on the specifics of this supplementary estimates package, and I would be pleased to answer them.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We'll proceed now to our first round of questions, with seven-minute slots.

Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and through you to the witnesses, especially the minister.

Minister, thank you for attending today. My first question is going to be very broad-based.

In the estimates, there are numerous initiatives being funded that fall under the Canada First defence strategy. Can you outline how these funding initiatives help contribute to the goals of the Canada First defence strategy and how they contribute to the readiness of the Canadian Armed Forces?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, you hit it right on the head, Mr. Norlock, in the sense that this contributes to our capabilities, and it gives us the opportunity to intervene and support those activities that we support. When you have flooding in Alberta as well as international operations, it's very important that we have the capability. We have to ensure that we have the personnel in place and that we have the capability. That includes, of course, the proper equipment to be able to do this.

We understand and recognize that the sovereignty of Canada and the protection of Canada is our number one responsibility. We have a responsibility as well to North American safety and security, and we work with the United States, Mexico, and other allies to ensure that. Part of this as well is our capability to involve ourselves when necessary in international operations. In my opening remarks, I referred to two of them that we are involved with at the present time.

Thank you for the question. The Canada First defence strategy is the core of what we are all about, what we are doing, and what we hope to continue to do.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Minister.

In 2013-14, the government acquired 15 new Chinook helicopters. These estimates will see funding for operational sustainment of the Chinooks. What value do they provide to the Canadian Forces? How do they contribute to the Canada First defence strategy?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Being able to respond to disasters at home is a key part of the Canada First defence strategy, and as the tactical medium-to-heavy-lift helicopter, the Chinooks' main role will be to rapidly move ground forces and equipment to areas that may be difficult or dangerous to access. The older version of the Chinooks, as you may be aware, has proven its capabilities in Afghanistan, among other places, and the newer ones will only be better, in the sense that there will be upgraded technology.

You did point out that there is $115 million that will be funding for the operational sustainment of the Chinooks. In previous budgets and estimates, the costs of doing those constructions were a part of that, but this will be the sustainment cost. It's absolutely vital, and it goes back to what I was saying about capability. We have to have complete capability, or to the extent possible for our country, and I think this is an important part of that. I think they're a tremendous asset for the armed forces.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Minister, I'd like to move to the navy and the Halifax-class frigates, which are the backbone of our navy. They've been critical to the defence of our coastal waters and continue to contribute to missions abroad. The modernization will further enhance these capabilities. Can you outline for us what we're doing to modernize these frigates?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We are doing quite a bit, Mr. Norlock, and I was very pleased to be in Halifax yesterday to initiate the HMCS Fredericton and to get word that the ship is now completely operational and has passed all the necessary steps.

This is part of an ongoing effort we have made to update these ships. They were commissioned for the most part in the 1980s. I remember with pride being in Toronto for the christening of the HMCS Toronto back in 1993, and I remember at the time how impressed I was with how operationally capable and modern these were. As you know, a lot has changed in technology in the last 20 or 25 years, so I was very pleased yesterday to have a relatively quick tour of the HMCS Montreal to see all the different technological improvements they have made, and it was very impressive.

One of the things you get when you talk with the members of our navy, and indeed other parts of the armed forces, is how proud they are and how pleased they are to get this kind of update. They told me they believe this is state of the art, not just with respect to Canada but in the world. Countries like New Zealand are entering into contracts for upgrades similar to those we have already undertaken, and that really gives you a great feeling about the navy and what we are capable of. When you see how pleased those men and women who are on the front line are with this, it reinforces the feeling in all of us that these were very worthwhile investments by Canada.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Minister. I can attest that if you want to maintain esprit de corps, you have to provide the necessary equipment to do so, and I think we're well on the way.

I wonder if since we've dealt with Chinooks and gone to boats, we can go back to some aircraft. Of course the proven capabilities of the Aurora have served the Royal Canadian Air Force very well in recent years. While they're getting up in age, they continue to be world class, and notably, are contributing to the battle against ISIL in Iraq.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Keep your question brief, please, Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

They also have the ability to provide reconnaissance and surveillance.

Can you tell us the funding estimates with regard to the Auroras and what they will contribute to?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

They are part of this effort we have undertaken to get the Auroras, in a sense, to be like new, to be as up to date as possible. You quite correctly pointed out that they play a vital role in reconnaissance and surveillance with respect to Operation Impact, and this will contribute to the modernization program that was announced. In 2014 we announced the restoration of four additional Aurora aircraft so that we will completely update their configuration, which will go towards making sure we have the capability not just within the navy but within the air force as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Chisholm, go ahead, please.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, thank you very much for being here today and thanks to the senior staff who are here with you.

We're here to talk about the supplementary estimates (B). I must tell you I was interested in hearing whether or not you were going to be increasing the supplementary estimates (B), or otherwise, what you were estimating in terms of the cost of our participation in Operation Impact. You've outlined what we're looking at: six CF-18 Hornets, two CP-140 Auroras, one CC-150T Polaris aerial refueller, 600 Canadian armed forces, and on and on. For a couple of months now we've been asking for the cost. We understand, according to General Tom Lawson, Chief of the Defence Staff , that an estimate has been provided to cabinet. On November 24 the parliamentary secretary Mr. Bezan told us that government plans to release a copy of the cost estimate today—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake, MB]

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, that was a mischaracterization of my words. If you actually review the transcript from CBC, my comments were that there would probably be questions to the minister on the cost of Operation Impact, not that we'd release anything. That was a characterization by Evan Solomon that was wrong.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Continue your question, Mr. Chisholm.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to ask the minister if he plans to give us an indication of how or whether the supplemental estimates (B) will be increased. Will he tell us at all about the additional costs that will be incurred as a result of participation in this operation? What can we expect to hear from him and his department?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

The supplementary estimates (B) don't include the incremental costs of Operation Impact. They will be reported in the normal way. Usually, within 90 days of the completion of a mission the costs are tabled.

We initiated this six-month mission around the first week of October, so that we've been in it about six to seven weeks now. I've been very pleased with the results. This is a six-month mission, and when the costs are known we will table them in the usual way. There are no plans to start amending the (B) estimates. I don't think that would actually be the place for it.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Can you tell us whether you have a cost estimate of the operation so that you can give us some idea of the confidence level that you have in relation to that?

I mean, the American president, when he announced their participation in this operation, was able to tell the American public an estimate of about $7.5 million a day. That was back on August 29. I don't understand why members of this committee...or Canadians, for that matter. It's a big deal. You've said it yourself, and I certainly agree with you. We'd like to know, frankly, what we're looking at.

What are you setting aside in terms of the costs, or are we just going to go ahead and participate and pay as she goes?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, there are incremental costs. There are many fixed costs, of course, with respect to the equipment we have and the personnel we are deploying. We will make those costs known when they are known. It's a little difficult to project in five months what we will do. Many times it's in terms of how many missions they fly. It's an ongoing effort.

I'd point out, Mr. Chisholm, that there is a huge human cost if we don't participate. The daily atrocities by ISIL that we're made aware of, the atrocities against men, women, and children, are...I hesitate to use the word “unprecedented”, but they are as bad as anything we've seen.

So yes, there will be costs to the Canadian military that are not part of the supplementary estimates (B), but they will be part of future costs. I believe Canadians will be supportive of the costs of this mission, because Canadians support this mission and understand what it's all about. They understand the human cost, too, if we did not get involved.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Chairman, I don't think there's any question that Canadians have concerns about the costs, all the costs—the human costs, the costs to the treasury, the costs to the taxpayer. Certainly the people in Dartmouth—Cole Harbour are asking me why the government is not coming clean with what this will cost us. You've talked about the human costs, and I don't dispute that, but we lay out budgets for everything in this government.

Are you not confident, Mr. Minister, with the estimates that have been provided to you? We know they've been provided to you; your chief of staff has said so. Are you not confident with the estimates that have been provided by the Department of Defence?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I'm confident in everything that's provided to me by the department and the members of our armed forces. To your constituent who is concerned about the costs of this, I would point out to him or her the human costs of not doing anything in this area. I would indicate to him that to be exact at the beginning of a mission, to be exact on what a mission will cost, is always challenging. We have to be able to adapt. We'll go forward, and you can tell him that we will report it in the usual way.

[Robert Chisholm, NDP, Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS]

Mr. Minister, do your officials not know what it will cost for a sortie, what it will cost to fly one of the Hornets and to drop, as you've told us in the House before, about 500 tonne bombs? Do your officials not know those costs?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

There are individual costs. You were talking about the costs of this mission—