National Defence Committee on March 9th, 2015

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

One thing you didn't mention in your presentation is China. You spoke about the maritime component of NORAD. I know that China is aggressively developing the blue-water fleet and also the submarine fleet. As you've said, submarines probably can be a very great threat now. Submarine warfare can be undertaken in a completely new way, modernized from the former U-boats that were used in the Second World War.

Is it the intention of China to eventually cooperate with Russia?

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

China is also developing its capabilities in terms of submarines and its fleet, as you've described. They are developing the capability to have ICBMs launched from submarines, to have submarine-launched ballistic missiles. Also, they are moving more towards mobile ICBMs rather than strictly silo-based ICBMs. Right now they're developing the capabilities, but we do not see any intent from China against North America.

You were talking about the north. China is also developing icebreaker capability. I think China is interested in going towards resources in the Arctic eventually, but China posses no threat at this time, from my understanding.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

If I may, I will ask another question related to the issue I was asking about before.

Let's say the Russians continue their exercises in the north and by chance one of their planes gets lost, or they say that it is lost, with non-conventional missiles or something like this. How would NORAD react?

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

If a long-range bomber gets lost in the Arctic...? I'm not sure that I have your question right.

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

As you know, in the exercises, to test the enemy, you say that you've lost the plane. It's basically to test you. Would you be able to destroy the plane? What timing or what procedures would be in place? You are detecting them—

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

Well, we try to—

[Corneliu Chisu, Conservative, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

—but then you need to lock in on the enemy, and to have some deterrent against them.

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

The first part, as you just said, is deterrence. The deterrence is to have the all-domain situational awareness to know what's going on.

Once you know what's going on, if you detect a launch of an aircraft, for the long-range aviation bomber it would be easier to destroy it rather than wait for it to launch its cruise missiles, as cruise missiles are very hard to detect and very hard to engage as well because of how small they are. We need to have the sensors in place to see as far north as we can, and we need to have bases as far north as we can to be able to engage if required.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Mr. Chisu.

Ms. Murray, please, for seven minutes.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you very much for being here, General. There are three areas I want to question you about.

First, in your opening remarks, when you were talking about the changes that are under way and some of the ways of responding to them, you noted that threats from terrorist organizations have “diminished”, though they've not “evaporated”. Could you tell us in what way they have diminished?

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

Madam, I think that pretty much worldwide we've developed a very good network to get the people from travelling on airplanes.... Before 9/11, we had stovepipes of excellence that were not necessarily sharing the information.

Now we have these stovepipes communicating with each other, so that if somebody books an airplane ticket online, for example, and that person should not be travelling, there are law enforcement agencies that can start tracking. It's all the ways that we track that person, whether they are able to go on an airplane or not.... By “diminishing”, I think what I meant to say is that we've made it very difficult for them to be successful.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you. That's good work. Congratulations.

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

Thank you.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Second, you noted in your remarks that a recently completed and signed NORAD strategic review calls for “improved sensors, communications systems and infrastructure” that may be required in the north “for NORAD to continue to be relevant and effective”. Does this review call for additional funding, or is this a request that can be accommodated in the current funding envelope? As well, does that review include a call for a UAV fleet?

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

In terms of the strategic review and the requirements, we're mainly talking about more sensors in the north warning system. There are two things with regard to the north warning system: one, it will need to be replaced, and two, it is not necessarily in the right place, because right now it does not cover the entirety of the Canadian sovereign territory. The Canadian air defence identification zone does not cover all of Canadian sovereign territory. In enunciating that, we will wait for the Government of Canada to decide if that is appropriate or not.

In terms of communications—

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Yes or no on the funding?

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

—and communications in the high north—

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Excuse me. That means—

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

Right now, there is no funding—

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

The question was, will this require additional funding?

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

Yes, ma'am, this requires additional funding. This is not in the present investment plan.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Okay. The side question is, does this infrastructure that may be required in the high north include UAVs?

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

NORAD needs as a requirement all-domain situational awareness. That basically ends up being a system of systems—air-based, space-based, land-based—and a UAV would be good for persistence observation in the high north.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you. That leads to the other part of my questioning.

Apparently a censored classified analysis that was obtained by media earlier this year under access to information shows that Canada lags behind many of our allies in terms of acquiring drones for surveillance. The assessment notes that both Russian and Chinese forces could launch drones from ice floes or submarines or long-range bombers. We know that the current government promised a program of unmanned drones, which became the JUSTAS program. It was a 2005 promise, and it was delayed and not delivered. The earliest delivery will be 2025.

Is the JUSTAS program still needed? Should it go forward? Are there plans to acquire drones in the near future, and if not, why not?

[LGen J.A.J. Parent]

We have requirements for all-domain situational awareness, whether it comes from the land, from the sea, or from the air. It's basically getting a system of systems that provides the best capability. If drones would be an asset for NORAD in terms of a maritime warning, yes, it would be an asset.

I cannot comment on the censored classified information that you're referring to, as I have not seen it.