National Defence Committee on March 25th, 2015

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

All agreed. Thank you very much.

We will suspend for a minute while a new witness takes the chair. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Colleagues, we will resume.

Pursuant to Standing Orders 110 and 111, this is a review of the order in council appointment of John Turner to the position of associate deputy minister of National Defence, referred to this committee on Friday, February 20, 2015.

Mr. Turner, welcome to this committee.

We will have your opening remarks, please, sir.

[John Turner, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. It's my pleasure to be here.

Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to speak to you today about my recent appointment as associate deputy minister of National Defence.

I would like to take a few minutes to summarize the career experience—both military and civilian—that positions me to take on this role.

I have been a senior executive with the Department of National Defence for a number of years now. Earlier in my career, I spent nearly 26 years in uniform with the Canadian Armed Forces as an infantry officer with the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry.

In fact, I am a graduate of both the Royal Military College of Canada and the Canadian Armed Forces Command and Staff College.

I also hold a master's degree in business administration from Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario, and a master's in strategic studies from the U.S. Army War College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

During my time with the Canadian Armed Forces, I held a number of appointments that helped prepare me for the challenges I would face in my civilian career. These included appointments as the commanding officer of the 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, in Winnipeg, and as the commander of the joint operations group in Kingston, where I led the operations, training, and administration of Canada's only tri-service high readiness and rapidly deployable command and control headquarters.

Upon retiring from the military in 2004, I continued to serve Canada as a senior member of the civil service during a time of change and renewal, and was motivated by a desire to use the skills I had gained in the military to help foster whole-of-government relationships, manage complex projects, provide strategic guidance, and allocate resources in a sound and effective manner.

As director general of strategic planning, business integration, and shared services at Public Works and Government Services Canada between 2004 and 2005, I was responsible for developing the engagement and reporting frameworks related to issues management and departmental renewal initiatives, as well as implementing strategies to promote the delivery of services.

ln 2005 I went on to serve as executive director of the security and justice division at the Treasury Board Secretariat, where I led the analysis of program issues within 16 Public Safety and Justice departments and agencies, providing guidance, oversight, and advice on program requirements and resource allocation.

Following two years in this position, I became the deputy commissioner of the Atlantic region within the Correctional Service of Canada, based in Moncton, New Brunswick, where I was responsible for fostering stakeholder relations and improving operations within six institutions, four correctional centres, and several parole offices spread across four provinces.

ln 2008 I returned to National Defence as the assistant deputy minister for information management and chief information officer, an appointment I held for four years. ln this position, I led an integrated team of 3,000 military, civilian, and contractor personnel in the delivery, sustainment, and life-cycle management of information management and technology services to over 100,000 clients located across Canada and around the world.

This included direct support to military operations during a period when our operational tempo was intense.

I also planned and oversaw the transition of over 220 employees and over $120 million in resources from National Defence to Shared Services Canada when it stood up.

I completed the year-long advanced leadership program at the Canada School of Public Service in 2010.

In 2012 I assumed the duties of assistant deputy minister for materiel. ln that position, I was responsible for a budget in excess of $5 billion. I led a team of 4,500 military and civilian personnel in the acquisition and support of aircraft, ships, vehicles, and other capital equipment while facilitating the department's implementation of the new defence procurement strategy.

Mr. Chair, although I have not worn a uniform for many years now, I remain deeply committed to this country and to the well-being of the Canadian Armed Forces.

I feel privileged to be part of the senior leadership of the defence team. I believe that my knowledge of the department and my experience leading people and managing budgets, programs, projects, and renewal initiatives, including those in the areas of high-readiness operations, information management technology, and materiel have helped position me to take on the role of associate deputy minister. This entails responsibility to the deputy minister, Mr. John Forster, who just spoke, for files related to defence renewal, search and rescue, information management and technology, and defence procurement.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you for your time. I look forward to any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you very much, Mr. Turner.

Our questions will begin with Mr. Williamson, please.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Turner, thank you for coming in today. As ADM, or associate deputy minister, for materiel, much of your work will involve the procurement file. Can you speak to any significant procurement or equipment upgrade projects that have been completed since you have taken over?

[John Turner]

I would start by saying that each year the materiel group moves over $5 billion in programs on an annual basis. That's not only new equipment coming into service, but providing the in-service support to existing fleets. Over the last few years, four C-17s have been delivered on time and on budget and 17 C-130Js, the Hercules aircraft on time and on budget. When I talk about being on time and on budget, I'm talking about the latest TB approval for schedule. Sometimes those schedules were updated, but based on the approvals received for definition and implementation, those projects were delivered on time and on budget.

To meet an urgent operational need in theatre, Chinook-D medium-lift helicopters were provided to the forces in Afghanistan, as were Leopard tanks. I was actually at the Treasury Board Secretariat when the secretariat worked through the weekend to deliver the Leopard 2 tanks that were urgently needed in Afghanistan, to make sure we got them to the troops in theatre.

At the moment, as I speak, we're still working on the Halifax class modernization. It's a $4.3-billion project and a major success story on both coasts of the country. All 12 frigates are being modernized. The most recently modernized frigate is now participating in operations in support of the Operation Reassurance mission with the allied effort in Ukraine.

We've taken advantage of opportunities to buy a fifth C-17 on extremely short notice. We were advised that Boeing was shutting down the production line and had 10 aircraft left and, from flash to bang, that was about a six-month process to get that fifth aircraft, which will be delivered any day now.

We were also told that the production line for the wing kits for the Aurora aircraft, which are being flown to great effect in theatre in support of the mission in Afghanistan, was going out of business as well. We managed to get four wing kits at the very last minute in very fast time to make sure of that, and rather than having just 10 Aurora aircraft available for operations, we increased the number to 14. Again, that was done very quickly.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

That's very good. Thank you.

How's my time, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

You have two minutes.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

You might have mentioned this, and if you did, I apologize. You served in the CAF for how long? I see that you retired in 2004.

[John Turner]

I served for 26 years, including my time at the military college.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

So it is safe to believe that you understand the importance of getting equipment to the men and women who serve. Either defence spending cuts, as we certainly saw under the previous government in the “decade of darkness”, or even delays, affect the men and women in their duty. Can you tell us how your knowledge of or experience in the forces will impact your duty to work on procurement and ensure that equipment is delivered in a timely fashion, on budget, and importantly, I think, in how the decisions are made?

I don't think anyone in the country expects the department or the officials to come up with the perfect solution—I don't believe there is a perfect solution—but with good solutions that can be justified and acted upon in a manner that is appropriate, so that equipment rolls out properly.

[John Turner]

It's a very good question. There are three components to any major military procurement. There are always factors around cost, capability, and schedule. Sometimes we'll consciously sacrifice schedule to make sure that we get the most capability for the dollar available.

When we're talking about the Canadian surface combatant, for example, those ships will be built over three decades. We'll start taking delivery in the mid-2020s. The last ship will be delivered in 2042. That last ship will sail out to 2070, so we want to make sure that we're going to get the most capability we can for the dollar that's available. It takes a lot of time in the design phase to make sure we're getting a design that enables technology insertion, if you can imagine how much technology is going to change over the next three decades. We don't want to have a design that leaves us stuck with a solution that produces a ship that's obsolete by the time it comes off the production line.

That's why procurement takes a lot of time up front to get it right so we deliver, as we say, as much capability as we possibly can, maximizing the value for Canadians while delivering the equipment that our soldiers, sailors, and airmen and airwomen need.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

That's time. Thank you very much.

Mr. Harris, please, for five minutes

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Turner, thank you for being with us today. Congratulations on your appointment.

If I may ask, first of all, you were the ADM materiel. What's the relationship between the associate deputy minister, which you are now, and the ADM materiel? Is there a reporting relationship or are they parallel?

[John Turner]

I get to work on the same files, but at a slightly higher level. We have governance around major procurements at the DG level—the director general level—the ADM level, and the deputy minister level. I support John Forster at the deputy minister level in dealing with deputy colleagues at Industry Canada and Public Works to try to move—

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

You would be an associate of the deputy minister, but there is no direct reporting relationship through, say, the ADM materiel?.

[John Turner]

The ADM materiel reports to Mr. Forster, who is the deputy minister but works very closely with me.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I get it. That was the question I had. Thanks.

I appreciate your experience and am happy to see you lay it out. I am particularly pleased to see that you have a lot of experience with the military, so you know what the needs are and how that all works together.

With your experience, can you answer this question? I think Mr. Forster didn't quite provide an answer about the date at which we might see the reset of the Canada First defence strategy. Do you have a date for us?

[John Turner]

That would be a policy decision question that I actually can't answer.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Are you aware of any date being identified as a rollout date?

[John Turner]

No, I am not aware.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

It was announced in 2013, so isn't that something that you were working on as ADM materiel?

[John Turner]

We would contribute to the equipment that would be potentially listed in a reset, but in terms of a date of release, I couldn't answer that question.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

I appreciate your comments on the efficiency with which the C-17s and the C-130Js were purchased. I understand that these are production models that were purchased. It's not quite like buying a car off the assembly line, but essentially, it's buying something that's already designed and being built, and it's a question of acquisition. As well, of course, the Chinook-Ds were bought from the U.S. forces, again without a procurement rollout, design, or anything like that.

I can understand why we could be efficient at that—and there is nothing wrong with being efficient in that aspect as well—but we have had problems, of course, with the JSS, which was ready to go to tender in 2008 and then was cancelled for a strange budget reason, which was that there wasn't enough money allocated at some point in the process.

I didn't have a chance to ask Mr. Forster this, although he did talk about how money is managed. Are there ideas about solving those problems? Sometimes we have money left over at the end of the year. At other times, changing the way the money goes could actually solve a problem so that it wouldn't leave us waiting until 2021 to get new supply ships, for example. Is there a way to deal with that? Or is that something we're stuck with forever?

[John Turner]

The department can reprofile funding and did so a couple of years back with respect to $3 billion that couldn't be spent in accordance with the original schedules around some major procurements. That money was profiled to the time at which the actual procurement was going to deliver on the capability. It was lining up the cash to the actual milestone payments in various contracts. That's an example of how we can do that. We can reprofile money from year to year.