National Defence Committee on Dec. 3rd, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Good morning, colleagues. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) we will continue our study of the care of ill and injured Canadian Armed Forces members.

In our first hour we have three witnesses. With us are: Marc Fortin, the assistant deputy minister of science and technology with the Department of National Defence; Lieutenant-Colonel Roger Tremblay, project manager of personnel protection research with Defence Research and Development Canada; and Sanela Dursun, director of research personnel and family support with Defence Research an Development Canada .

As we transition between witnesses at the end of the first hour and in the interest of efficient use of time, we will consider Mr. Williamson's motion, a notice that you have before you.

In our second hour we will hear from, as an individual, Harvey Moldofsky, professor emeritus with the department of psychiatry, faculty of medicine, the Institute of Medical Science, the University of Toronto.

Mr. Fortin, if you please, you have 10 minutes for your opening remarks, sir.

[Dr. Marc Fortin, Assistant Deputy Minister, Science and Technology, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, thank you for the invitation to appear in front of the committee to contribute to this important study, the study of the care of ill and injured in the military.

If you'll allow, Mr. Chair, I'll switch between French and English.

As Assistant Deputy Minister of Science and Technology, I am responsible for providing timely and relevant advice on science and technology to the Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces. In parallel, I also serve as the Chief Executive Officer of Defence Research and Development Canada (DRDC), and am responsible for managing DRDC research centres across the country.

Defence Research and Development Canada provides DND and the Canadian Armed Forces the knowledge and technological advantage needed to defend and protect Canada's interests at home and abroad. Our purpose is to provide the best advice, best knowledge and the best solutions available.

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

Defence Research and Development Canada, DRDC, leverages other organizations' expertise, knowledge, and resources so that collaborations with partners create a more networked research environment. DRDC anticipates S and T and defence security challenges, and acts as the catalyst for an innovative defence and security research sector in Canada.

In short, our purpose is to provide DND and the Canadian Armed Forces the best advice, the best knowledge, and the best solutions possible. Our staff are absolutely unique in their knowledge of the business of defence, and they have first-hand knowledge of theatres of operation and of the challenges faced by the Canadian Armed Forces.

When the war in Afghanistan became the primary effort of the Canadian Armed Forces, DRDC refocussed its program of work to help achieve operational objectives overseas and to provide science and technology expertise that would save lives. More than 25 DRDC personnel, and I might add civilians, have been deployed in Afghanistan to provide science and technology support in theatre. Some of our staff have been decorated for their service in support of Canadian Armed Forces missions. Our experience in theatres of operations has informed our work in a range of areas, including research on operational injuries.

I'd like, Mr. Chair, to briefly give a couple of examples of scientific work that has been accomplished or initiated since Afghanistan, areas where DRDC and the scientific community have contributed knowledge and solutions.

In Afghanistan we saw increased use of improvised explosive devices, IEDs, which resulted in the increase of the incidence of blast-induced injuries and associated trauma. DRDC has developed an integrated blast injury research program, which delivers operationally relevant medical information with the intent to deepen DND's and the Department of Veterans Affairs' understanding of this type of trauma. That knowledge is important for the development of diagnostics and treatments, and to support informed decision-making.

We have developed combat incident analysis expertise, which is a unique evidence-based capability for enhancing soldier survivability and minimizing life-changing injuries. These developments have had real impact and informed vehicle upgrades and the fielding of new protective systems.

We're also using state-of-the-art technologies aimed at understanding mild traumatic brain injuries that will eventually lead to the development of better diagnostics, and perhaps more effective treatment.

We also understand that when our personnel return home from overseas, they face many challenges. As such, DRDC works to identify the positive and negative aspects of post-deployment reintegration experienced by Canadian Armed Forces members returning from Afghanistan. The post-deployment reintegration scale that our staff has developed aims to inform the work of the Canadian Armed Forces as they help our men and women in uniform adjust to work and family life when they return home.

Much of the work we do is performed in collaboration with others. The nature and complexity of the challenges members of the Canadian Armed Forces are faced with in theatre of operations, or returning from theatre, are such that we have developed new ways of accessing knowledge and of collaborating with other organizations.

Domestically, we work with partners across the department, including the chief of military personnel and the surgeon general. We work across government, including Veterans Affairs Canada, and across Canada, including universities and various institutes. For example, DRDC was instrumental in the creation of the Canadian Institute for Military and Veteran Health Research, also known as CIMVHR, which I believe has appeared in front of this committee.

CIMVHR is a consortium of 26 universities across Canada. We can thus tap into the tremendous knowledge and expertise that is spread across our universities in Canada, and leverage their knowledge base. DRDC also initiated last year a collaboration with the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. CIHR is the largest funding organization for medical research in Canada. We have worked with CIHR to provide funding that will allow Canadian scientists to bring their talent and expertise to focus on military health problems.

At the international level, DRDC works with NATO member countries that have faced similar challenges, either in Afghanistan or elsewhere in the world. DRDC has many scientists who are leading groups and panels in the Five Eyes science and technology community.

One example of our work with our allies is medical countermeasures, medical measures to protect military members from harm in terms of chemical toxins, bacteriological threats. Canada has played a leading role in forming the Medical Countermeasures Consortium with the U.S., Australia, and the U.K., to optimize operational performance in health protection.

Through the advancement of medical knowledge, monitoring, and detection capabilities and treatments against chemical, biological, and radiological threats, the Canadian Armed Forces have greatly improved protective, diagnostic and therapeutic capabilities.

In closing, I would like to say that I am proud of the accomplishments of the dedicated staff in my organization and at DRDC. We will continue to work with the Canadian Armed Forces to provide them with the unique, essential and strategic science and technology expertise that has, and will continue to, save lives.

I thank you for inviting me. My colleagues and I will be happy to answer questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Dr. Fortin.

We'll begin our opening round of questions with Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and through you to the witnesses, thank you for appearing today.

My first questions will go to Ms. Dursun.

At the base in my area, through the Minister of National Defence, we've really increased the functioning of the military resource family centre.

Could you talk about the programs available to serving personnel members, in particular to their spouses and families? It's kind of hard to expect top performance from somebody who has issues at home. For instance, they may require their spouse to work to supplement the family income, and then child care becomes an issue. Perhaps they just transferred to a base, and how do they make new friends? For teenage kids, we know there's an extra bit of pressure on them with regard to forming friends at a new school.

Can you talk a bit about your work and what is provided to our serving men and women, in particular to their spouses and family?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

If I may, Mr. Chair, I'd like to reposition the role of DRDC, Defence Research and Development Canada.

DRDC is a research organization. We perform research in support of the requirements of the surgeon general and chief of military personnel of DND. Our role is to provide the evidence base, not to deliver programs per se. The delivery of programs is coordinated and led by the chief of military personnel and surgeon general, but certainly our scientists are there to support the CMP, the chief of military personnel, who I believe will be here next week, if I'm not mistaken.

I'll turn to Dr. Dursun to add to my answer.

[Dr. Sanela Dursun, Director, Research Personnel and Family Support, Defence Research and Development Canada]

I can talk about the research we do with military families and how that research supports the programs and services that are delivered out of military family resource centres.

We do have a comprehensive family research program in DRDC. We do surveys of military spouses, pan-CF large ones, where we survey usually 9,000 military spouses. We basically analyze the data and provide that information to the director of military family resource centres, and that informs the programs and policies. Sometimes there are differences by location in terms of what we provide to certain military family resource centres.

Every three years, for example, we have a survey of military spouses. Actually, we just completed our latest survey of military spouses; we just closed the administration of it.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

It says here that Dursun “has applied her findings in her work as a researcher for the Department of National Defence. As part of her job, she advises military officials on how to improve the quality of life for service members and their families.”

What advice have you given military officials on how to improve the service?

[Dr. Sanela Dursun]

As a result of our research, once we compile the results, we basically go back and say, okay, these are the priority issues.

I'll give you an example. In the last survey of military spouses, we looked at the key services, the most difficult to establish once the families moved across the country. Using that information, we provided to the chief of military personnel and the director of military family services information on where the priorities are and how they can enhance the programs to address those gaps.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

How has that worked?

[Dr. Sanela Dursun]

Absolutely, they've used the information that we...and this is an ongoing program of research. I'm familiar with research over the past 10 years. Over the past 10 years we've provided that information.

I personally had an opportunity to present at the highest level, to the Armed Forces Council, on military family research and the importance of families in the operational effectiveness of the Canadian Forces.

Absolutely, the recommendations and the gaps identified have been appreciated and have informed the decision-making at the highest levels in the military.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

With regard to one of the most stressful and most common operational stress injuries, I'm referring in particular to PTSD, have you done any studies surrounding that and how families can best cope with that, and help their family member who suffers from PTSD?

Have you done these studies? Have you made recommendations, and if so, have those recommendations begun to be implemented?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

If I may, Mr. Chair, we provide the evidence base for decisions to be made by the persons responsible, in this case the surgeon general and chief of military personnel. We do not develop policy, but we provide the evidence base that is then used—

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I understand what you're saying. You do the research and provide the evidence base. That's good, and that's needed. You have to do that first, but has the rubber hit the road? In other words, have there been improvements as a result of your service in the assistance given to families? That's basically my question. I know that you don't do it, but you must be aware of whether it's being done or not.

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

Right. We are a provider of knowledge, not a provider of services, and the chief of military personnel—

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I'm aware of that, sir. I'm asking you, to your knowledge, have some of your recommendations been implemented?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

The chief of military personnel will be able to answer that next week.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much. I've done my questioning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Mr. Norlock.

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First off, I see that things have changed a little bit since I was last here as the critic. I welcome you in your new role, and wish you all the best. I see my friend Mr. Bezan has been promoted, and I wish you all the best in your new role.

Thank you so much for your presentation. I noted that you focused a lot on the blast-induced injuries. We've always had that, but we have a deadly new dimension to it in our time.

You mentioned that you've developed an integrated blast injury research program that delivers operationally relevant medical information, with the intent of deepening DND's and Veterans Affairs' understanding of this type of trauma. Could you expand on that for us and give me a better sense of what that program is and how it works?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

The DRDC has developed unique research facilities to replicate the effect of blasts at different levels.

In the first days of Afghanistan, when everyone realized that the IEDs, the improvised explosive devices, were creating more damage than we were hoping they would create, we reallocated our workforce, reshaped our workforce, to focus on the problem of, number one, vehicle protection: can we improve the armour on those vehicles to reduce on the outside shell the damage created by IEDs?

We've also focused a good number of people on the inside of the vehicle, on the harnesses, the seats, the suspension of those seats. This was also to reduce the impact of IEDs on vehicles, thereby reducing injuries to the military members.

We've worked as well on personal protection equipment, helmets, pelvic protection, again with a view to reducing injuries to begin with.

We've also worked in Suffield at a facility where we can replicate some of the blasts, the effects of blasts. We're also looking all the way down to the cellular level and what happens when organisms and cells are exposed to blasts. We're trying to understand the basic physiological effects of a blast wave on cells, trying to understand the origins of the trauma that we see in our military members who have been exposed to blasts.

We are also working with academic organizations to better understand the linkages between blast injuries and PTSD, mental health issues. We're looking for markers for better diagnostics to begin with. If we can diagnose early the effects of blasts, we can perhaps better treat or prevent the development of deeper symptoms in members who have been affected. We're looking at, and I will brag a little bit here, cutting-edge tools to detect early signs of trauma. We're using genomic tools, looking at DNA and metabolites in cells, to see if we can identify early signs of problems developing.

I mentioned in my opening remarks the work we do with CIHR, the Canadian Institutes of Health Research. The CIHR is the largest organization that funds medical research in Canada. We're leveraging the investments made by the Canadian government through CIHR across all universities to bring the best people we can possibly find in Canada to work on military problems like these.

We're also working with NATO and what we call TTCP, The Technical Cooperation Program. The TTCP is a community made up of the U.S., U.K., Australia, New Zealand, and Canada. All are facing the same issues we are facing, or very similar issues. The U.S. investment is much larger than any of the other four partners in that consortium. We're leveraging a huge investment made in the U.S. We contribute in niche areas. We have access to knowledge that would be impossible to recreate in Canada, because of the size of the investment.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's actually a perfect segue to my next question.

I am impressed with the number of partnerships you're engaging in, simply because all of our partners are facing the same dilemmas, the same challenges, that we are.

Do you actually coordinate all these things, or does each nation independently look after what they deem to be their priorities and then you see if there are overlaps and synergies? Is it from the conceptual point onward looked at as, “You have expertise in this area, so you focus there. We'll take care of this piece of it and we'll bring all the pieces back”?

Which approach is it? Is it something different from that? Could you tell me how that partnership works in terms of the planning and coordination, to maximize the synergy that can come from the independent work that's being done?

[Dr. Marc Fortin]

It's a little bit of all of that.

Let me explain how we are focusing our investments here in Canada. We work with the surgeon general and the CMP, the chief of military personnel, to understand the requirements on their side. They are the providers of services and they are the ones who face the problems that our military members experience. We work with the surgeon general and the CMP to identify the requirements they have, as they are the service providers, and we form a plan of work on our side.

We then work in international bodies to see who's doing what. We do coordinate and not duplicate what's done elsewhere. Given the complexity of the problems, we cannot afford to duplicate what's being done elsewhere. There are enough issues and challenges that we need to, I wouldn't say divide up the pie, but we need to be coordinated across nations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Peter Kent]

Thank you, Dr. Fortin.

Mr. Allen.

[Mike Allen, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

I have a couple of questions, and I'd like to start out at a fairly high level.

Mr. Fortin, you indicated that you have 25 DRDC personnel who were deployed in Afghanistan. Some were decorated, and you said there were civilians.

Can you tell me the profile of those 25 staff in terms of their skills and competencies?