Evidence of meeting #117 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-77.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC
Okay.
My question is for Peter Clifford.
The Canadian Armed Forces have made it a priority to support their members and veterans suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder or other illnesses caused by operational stress.
Do the Armed Forces still have work to do with their members to end the stigma caused by this syndrome and mental illness?
Colonel Peter Clifford Deputy Surgeon General, Department of National Defence
We have certainly made tremendous progress in the last decade or so. There's always more we can look at and do as research evolves, but in terms of operational stress injuries and reducing stigma, I'm confident it has been significantly reduced among our entire population.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Richard.
Gentlemen, it's great having you at the committee again.
Colonel Jetly, it's always great seeing you. We did a lot of work together on mental health within the armed forces.
As you know, there has been quite a bit of discussion around paragraph 98(c) of the National Defence Act, which isn't in Bill C-77. However, there is quite a bit of concern that it adds to the stigmatization of mental health within the armed forces, and possibly hasn't been used in the past.
Colonel Jetly, could you respond from a mental health perspective, if that section prevents people from coming forward?
Colonel Rakesh Jetly Senior Psychiatrist and Mental Health Advisor, Directorate of Mental Health, Canadian Forces Health Services Group, Department of National Defence
Sadly, it's been my job of being involved in every completed suicide in the last decade and many of the attempts. I'm not aware of a single person who has been charged with self-harm. When we do the deep dives and actually go and revisit this, it hasn't been an issue. The number one priority has always been the care of the individual after self-harm. The medical folks will treat the person in confidence. If the chain of command is aware, the person would immediately receive care.
We stopped doing some reinvestigations for self-harm, instead replacing them with a process to make sure that the senior doctor and the chain of command talk to make sure the person is in care.
The default stance of health services will be to care for the individual, and for the chain command the care of the individual has been the number one priority. I have no knowledge or experience speaking to family members, chain of command, colleagues, doctors that this rule has been a factor in people not seeking care.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Colonel Strickey, as the the deputy JAG, do you concur that the removal of this section of the National Defence Act would not undermine the chain of command and the work that you do in investigations and prosecutions within the military justice system?
Col Stephen Strickey
Well, sir, when both the minister and the JAG, and I, for that matter, were here in the previous meeting, they undertook to look at this issue. I can say that we continue to do that.
From a statistical perspective, in answer to your question, since 2000, section 98 of the NDA has been used 17 times. Four charges were preferred to court martial, which means the Canadian military prosecution service decided to proceed with the charges via the court martial: three charges were under paragraph 98(a)—I know that's not the issue here—malingering; and one was under paragraph 98(b), aggravating disease or injury. All four of those charges were withdrawn at trial. Thirteen charges under section 98 were disposed of at summary trial: 10 charges were under paragraph 98(a) of the NDA. Eight charges resulted in a finding of guilty; two charges were stayed. There were two charges under paragraph 98(b). One charge resulted in a finding of guilty and one charge was stayed. One charge under paragraph 98(c), injuring self or another under the NDA, was laid, but this charge was not proceeded with.
Based on what I've just stated, since the year 2000 there was one charge laid under paragraph 98(c) of the National Defence Act. You may recall that the last time I was before the committee I alluded to it as the modern military justice system, if you will, following the changes that were made in 1999.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
I let that run over because I think the committee wanted to hear that.
I'm going to have to move to MP Garrison.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, all of you, for being here again today.
As you know, one concern of mine has been self-harm and suicide within the Canadian Forces. I first want to start by acknowledging the progress the Canadian Forces have made with the suicide prevention strategy, with the emphasis on mental health. Certainly your statement today reflects that progress. That said, there's still a lot that we need to be doing in this area. We still have a rate of death by suicide in the Canadian Forces, which is, of course, unacceptably high. However, I do want to acknowledge the progress.
Colonel Jetly, in the remarks you just made, you said you had no knowledge or information of anyone citing paragraph 98(c) as a reason, but what I have heard from families is it's a broader question of the concern that if someone in the forces discloses mental health issues, it will somehow damage their career or result in their leaving the Canadian military. Would you say that concern has been raised?
Col Rakesh Jetly
Yes, you're speaking about, in general, barriers to care.
Barriers to care can include concern about career. It can be a stigma: what people are going to think about me, what people are going to think about my self. The number one barrier to care, actually, has always been that people are unaware they have a mental illness and that they could benefit. That's why we've put in place the educational initiatives. There's a whole series of barriers to care that are consistent within militaries across the world, and our own research shows the same thing. Over the last 18 to 20 years we've developed specific countermeasures to all of those, so we have the resources in place, the education, the cultural shift from leadership. There definitely is that.
The treatment of a serious mental illness is actually the best shot you have of keeping your career. That's what we say, because if you're ill it's going to affect your work, your family. You're going to be on that spiral. You can't guarantee a career is saved through treatment, but it's the best shot you have. That's the continual messaging we give people.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
In the suicide prevention strategy, I guess one goal of yours has been to remove as many barriers as possible. If paragraph 98(c) hasn't really been used for discipline and order reasons, then is there any reason to keep it there when it might, in fact, contribute to that stigmatization, then, as a barrier?
Col Rakesh Jetly
I'm not sure that's a question for a doctor to answer. I don't have any evidence of it as being a barrier. There may be other reasons to keep it and/or remove it that are more subject—
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
You don't believe it might contribute to stigmatization.
LGen Charles Lamarre
Can I hop in on that question as well?
Another thing that perhaps needs to be understood is that people have the impression—and I'd like to set it straight—that if you're identified as having a mental illness, somehow your career is over. Nothing could be further from the truth.
As part of the education programs that Dr. Jetly was referring to, we have quite a few leaders who have stepped forward. These are senior people in our organization who speak openly about the problems they've had with mental health. They explain that they stepped forward and asked for help from our mental health system and have really benefited from this.
When we're talking about senior folks, we're talking about general and flag officers and chief warrant officers who took that brave step, if you will, to go and get service from a system that was intended to help them, and did help them, so they could continue to go forward. This includes people on deployed operations, who are being treated for mental illnesses but are entirely operating in the way they should be. We are fortunate to have a medical system that allows us to have this resource that enables folks to go forward.
The education situation that Dr. Jetly was talking about has the full support of the chain of command. Having a lot of folks hear this and see the availability of the resources, which extend beyond just going to your doctor but include a whole network of people who are there to help you, is significant in making sure that our folks have access to help.
Phone lines, chaplaincies, chains of commands and informed colleagues and friends who have themselves seen what's available are all tools that members of the forces have to go and get help. As Dr. Jetly said, if they go and get that help, it's their best path to well-being as individuals, and of course to continuing their careers as well.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
Thank you.
Colonel Strickey, you said very few charges have been laid under section 98 altogether, and only one under 98(c). Is there any evidence that this section is making a positive contribution towards discipline or maintaining order in the military?
Col Stephen Strickey
As I mentioned, one of the things the minister and the JAG undertook to do was to look at this. As the deputy JAG for military justice, I can tell you we are actively looking at it, but it may be a bit premature for me to comment on it at this time.
NDP
Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC
We suggested at the time that there was a deadline coming up and the committee was going to have to deal with the bill. If you're going to give us advice on it that's going to be useful, it has to be very soon.