Thank you.
Evidence of meeting #118 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #118 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cases.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:45 a.m.
Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC
There are many sexual assault cases in the army, and I must admit that it is difficult for me to understand the situation.
What can that be attributed to? Is it because people remained silent on the issue for too long? Why is it that, all of a sudden, cases seem to be accumulating and reaching significant numbers? Is the number of sexual assaults proportional to the number of assaults identified in general society?
I would like to understand what pushes armed forces members to commit so many assaults? Is it because they are in a different environment?
11:45 a.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
It is true that very young people find themselves in an environment where they are far from their family and its support. They live in very close proximity to one another in barracks where women and men live together. That was my reality. It gives you an idea of the type of of environment I was exposed to. Certainly, risks increase in such circumstances.
11:50 a.m.
Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC
Is it possible they feel that it is allowed because they are outside their usual environment?
That is what I'm trying to understand.
11:50 a.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
Honestly, I'm not sure how much the situation may have changed.
I came into the Canadian Armed Forces a long time ago. In my experience at that time, a certain view was propagated, especially in recruit courses. Regardless of the opinion we may have on the issue, that somewhat affects our behaviour. Recruits learned to talk as little as possible if something happened. They would tell themselves that it seemed to be allowed.
11:50 a.m.
Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC
I would like to know what you think about a fairly broad issue.
What do you think is the best way to convince victims of crime that their well-being is crucially important, and that it is up to them to focus on it? How can they be educated about that?
11:50 a.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
Resources that might support them must be implemented.
When all that happens, I would say offhand that there should be a public affairs office able to manage cases and provide a call centre to direct people. If the case is deemed to be serious, problematic, medical assistance or psychological support would need to be provided.
If we think that focus should be on the victims, the first thing that needs to be done is to ensure their well-being and find ways to take action. I don't know to what extent that has been done so far.
11:50 a.m.
Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, CPC
Trust should also be developed.
An article I read said that the armed forces have provided awareness and training sessions, but they have not tackled root causes of inappropriate sexual behaviours.
What do you think about that?
11:50 a.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
Military members are told that they should not behave that way, that it is not good. They are also told what is not good about it.
When it comes to third party intervention, that is part of training. I work at a university now, and I know that is also being taught.
There is a difference between the duty to report and the duty to intervene. You intervene when, for example, someone makes an inappropriate joke in your presence and you tell them to stop because it is inappropriate. The training is supposed to provide people with tips, give them tools so they can intervene without feeling isolated.
It is certain that, if all those things, both the inappropriate winks and inappropriate jokes, are reported and make it to the top of the organization, the system will get clogged up. The department needs to be better equipped to manage serious cases. Processes need to be provided, so that those cases can be managed internally. Once again, it must be ensured that responders receive training in order to be able to meet the needs.
It is very important to do that properly because, if not, and a minor incident occurs that is poorly managed and develops into a major case, the person will know that they have no support and no one is listening to them. So great importance should be attached to minor cases and the training of people who manage them, so that they would meet the needs.
11:50 a.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
Certainly. Training may also not be provided by professionals. In addition, it is not very convincing if the person providing the training has committed those kinds of acts.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you very much.
Without the changes that Bill C-77 would bring to the military justice system, how difficult is it now for victims to access general information? What does the right to information mean to victims?
11:50 a.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
It's very important, and I don't think that right now there's much of that; hence, people are left in the dark. I've been hearing that a lot. When they go through the system they learn after the fact via a peer, a person who went through the system themselves, what they should or shouldn't have done. They need information. That's why it's so important to have somebody there to guide them through the system. I don't think what is offered right now through the VLO is sufficient to provide that kind of information.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
That's good to hear.
We know there needs to be a culture change in the military, especially surrounding sexual harassment and assault. In your opinion, what aspects of Bill C-77 would work to modify that culture and strengthen the rights of victims?
11:50 a.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
Again, if done properly, one thing will be to show a victim trauma-centric support. That would show the military can care. Care and the military don't always mesh, to care for people when we're trained to do these things that we do. That we care about the victims will give this.... When the chain of command gets a case, they learn that their role is to ensure the person is well received, listened to, respected, and that they'd have a trauma-informed response.
A PO or chief who's not learned to do these things all his life could create a shift in the focus of their role. I think people are lost when they get these cases. They don't know what to do. Giving them the proper tools can help.
Would that convince everyone? No, and that's why a procedure to make sure that's being followed is what matters. Then the change comes later.
I keep talking about the seatbelt in the car. For years we never used to buckle up. We were aware that we were going to die if we didn't buckle up, and still no one buckled up. When we put in a rule and enforced that you would get an $80 fine if you didn't buckle up, everybody started to buckle up. Now who is not going to buckle up? It changed our ways. We imposed something, and that made the change happen. Culture change can happen by enforcement of procedures.
The rotation of personnel is really frequent in the military. Eventually, the people who don't believe will leave and new people will come in, and they will be into that new mindset.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
In your experience, is a particular demographic most susceptible to sexual harassment and assault?
11:55 a.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
Yes, it's young women especially, and there's been research that people from indigenous groups in the military were more susceptible as well, something I found interesting. The survey excluded the rangers. That would be nice to have.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
11:55 a.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
For these specific groups? The fact that they're really young means they don't have a lot of information. They are overwhelmed. They need proper guidance. Most people who are subjected to sexual violence are very young, and have just started in the military. They are still really impressed by their chain of command, and they will listen to whatever they say. The chain of command may also take advantage of that and tell people they can't report, that they can't do this, and they'll listen. They're more in that mindset when they just finish their boot camp, for example.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you very much for your work and all your efforts.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you again for your service, for your leadership and the strength you're showing in dealing with such a difficult issue.
In listening to your testimony just now, the whole issue of summary hearings is supposed to negate the criminal charges brought against a perpetrator. In your opinion, should sexual misconduct be dealt with by summary hearing, or should it always be done through court martial?
11:55 a.m.
Founder, It's Just 700
Sexual misconduct is a really minor crime. I don't think it necessarily has a place in criminal court, that's for sure, but you mean military court. It's disciplinary.
My only concern about having it extended this way is that it will be led by people who are not properly trained and don't have the expertise, experience and knowledge. If we keep it the way it is right now, my concern is that there are so many of them. So many little actions are going to come up that burden the system for bigger cases. I think it's not a bad scenario to give it in summary hearings. However, you can't just give it to people who are trained the way they are now.
When I was in the three-day training, it was about learning the basics of the legislative process. This is not the kind of training you have for provincial victim support. They have social workers. They have people who have been working in this. If you get the person who happened to take the three-day training once, there's no way they're going to be able to. They don't receive anything about victims or trauma-informed care. They won't be equipped to respond to these things. If this happens, resources need to be invested to make sure it's done properly, and the accountability and the oversight are done.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
The Auditor General did say that the investigations were taking too long. Again, there is the whole question around the Beaudry decision of the Court Martial Appeal Court that was dismissed. They're sending it up to the Supreme Court, because again, it's time frames, taking too long because of a lack of training.
I think we need to have clear definitions of what sexual misconduct is, what sexual assault is, and then the proper training to go with that, whether it's the victim liaison officers who specialize in sexual misconduct and sexual assault to support victims, as well as military police.
