National Defence Committee on Jan. 31st, 2019

[Sandra Perron]

I think that the victim can choose to move at her own pace and decide whether she wants to report the incident or not. I understand that the organization absolutely wants to know about incidents in order to be able to react appropriately, but sometimes a report causes more damage than anything else.

[Richard Martel]

Do you think that Operation Honour shows that there is a deep desire to improve things? Do people believe that that operation reflects a deep desire to change the culture? Can you name at least one weak point and one strong point in that operation?

[Sandra Perron]

The intention is there. I have always believed that the Canadian Forces wanted to improve things and to see more women in positions of leadership. They know why there must be more women. However, the way they go about it is sometimes awkward and causes more harm than good.

[Richard Martel]

Is there a weak point? Where is the biggest improvement needed? Can you tell me?

[Sandra Perron]

You can't order people to respect women. If they don't respect their female colleagues, giving orders is not going to change that.

[Richard Martel]

What is being done right at this time? Operation Honour does seem to have made a big difference.

[Sandra Perron]

It is being talked about.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you.

We'll go to MP Dzerowicz.

[Julie Dzerowicz, Davenport, Lib.]

Thank you.

Thank you so much for your excellent presentations. I have a lot of questions and only five minutes.

I'm thinking about your comment, Major Perron, in terms of how we can bring more men along. You didn't ask that question, but that's kind of how I'm.... How do we do it better? I've worked only in male-dominated environments, so I'm very familiar with that changing culture. I guess that's the first part of my question.

The second part, which just came to me, is to what extent, particularly for those who have been in the military for a while—and I'm talking about men—they have a fear that they might have done something in the past and all of a sudden we're asking them to change. It's almost like they actually have to acknowledge that they've done something they shouldn't have done. Also, there's a gradation. There's saying stuff, and there's doing stuff; there's level 1 doing stuff, level 2 doing stuff, and so on. There are different levels. It might have been 30 years ago or 20 years ago. That fear plays in, and it's easier just to say “No, we're not changing” versus accepting that you might not have done something well. That's playing into not changing the culture.

I could be imagining this, but it just struck me as you were talking, as we're having this conversation, that this might be very much a part of it. To what extent do we need to hold someone accountable for something from 20 or 30 years ago? Also, how do we actually provide some sort of space where there's an acknowledgement, but that allows us to move on?

What are your thoughts on that?

[Sandra Perron]

I think that's very insightful. There is a fine line between doing something 30 years ago that was rape and doing something 30 years ago that was a really bad joke. We have to recognize that.

We also have to recognize the difference between people who are trying to do the right thing and are just slipping up and others who are resisting women in the workplace. We can tell the difference. In terms of the odd joke, it hurts and it demeans women, but sometimes it is meant to be buddy-buddy. At other times, it is meant to highlight that you're not wanted there. We have to discern the difference between the intentions.

Right now, I sit on a committee with the commissionaires. I'm the only woman. Occasionally they will refer to me as their “diversity”. They will say, “Well, let's ask our diversity.” It's wrong, but they mean well, and they're trying really hard to grow and to think outside the box.

We have to be able to tell the difference. If people come forward with their experience from way back when and recognize that it was wrong, we shouldn't be punishing them, unless it was a criminal offence. We should be rewarding them for recognizing it and growing.

[Julie Dzerowicz]

What would be the recommendation there? It's almost like you need to bring a whole group along. How can we do that? Is there a recommendation around that? If you don't have it now, I would encourage you to try to send something in. That's for both of you.

Again, this has just come to me. It's almost like a truth and reconciliation within, maybe, when you actually do it. You have to acknowledge it. It's almost like you can pass through the barrier and get to the other side.

Maybe I'll ask my general question. Maybe you're not the right people to ask in terms of how we can bring more men along. You're right—you can't force anyone to change. It's more than just showing them different situations about the light; it's addressing some of the fears that are inside. Maybe that's what we need to do.

What are your thoughts on that? I don't know if you have anything else to add.

[Kristine St-Pierre]

I agree that you can't force people to come along, but I think there's a very big role to be played by the leadership and by leaders at various levels. For example, there's the sergeant, let's say, who gives a course on diversity and comes in and says, “Oh well, we have to do this.” That's where it should begin, in terms of “We're doing this because it's important.”

If it starts there, I think it's going to go a long way, in addition to changing the training and doing all of that. I think the leadership across the board has to believe in it, first and foremost, and there are still a lot of people who don't believe in it.

[Julie Dzerowicz]

I have another question. Before I came here, I was an executive in the financial sector. We talked a lot about mentorship versus sponsorship, and I wanted to get your thoughts on it.

I was thinking, once you get up the ladder, you actually need to be sponsored, because that's what happens for males. You need someone to adopt you, bring you along, and put you into those positions. Mentorship is more for the junior levels. It's kind of mentoring you up in terms of improving your skills.

Do you think that could apply as a model as we try to increase the number of women at more senior levels and bring more women in the military?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Sorry, before you answer, I'm going to have to yield the floor to Mr. Bezan.

We will have time. I know Madam Gallant had a follow-up to her question, and I will note that Ms. Dzerowicz has the same.

MP Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank both of our witnesses for being here today.

Major Perron, I want to thank you for your service. I want to thank you for being that pioneer despite all the hardship that you encountered within the Canadian Armed Forces. You're also a hero to so many young women and men for the role that you've played, so I thank you for that.

I love what you were just saying about making sure we collect the data, because I've always subscribed to the theory that if you don't measure it, you can't manage it. If we are going to properly manage this, we have to have even better datasets than what we have right now.

I know we've been dealing a lot with the wrongdoing that has occurred, the obstacles that have been put in the way of the promotion of women in the armed forces. Let's do the flip side.

You're talking about career advancement, but what attracts women into the armed forces to start with? If we make all the changes—Operation Honour works properly; mentorship is there; we can collect all the information and stamp out sexual harassment, sexual misconduct and intimidation within the armed forces, and the culture essentially does change and we have a better work environment for all—what do we do on the recruitment side to bring young women into the armed forces?

[Sandra Perron]

I was going to say, “Good luck with that,” but I'll reserve my sarcasm for another day.

The thing is, I go into schools every year, and I see that even this young generation is struggling with stereotypes and traditional roles. I play a game with them. I show them photos of men and women, and I make them guess who does what—“Which one is the firefighter?”—and they're still very much in the old stereotypes. The reason is that they're getting 30,000 messages a day on the Internet. If you go home and Google “soldier”, “sailor”, “trucker”, “cab driver” or “professor”, you're going to get men. If you Google “care worker”, “teacher” or “flight attendant”, you're going to get women.

We have to work at the very lowest level, a young level, to get them minded because that's the age when they get convinced about some of the opportunities. If you Google “boat”, for example, you're going to find 800 images of men driving boats. They're getting programmed at a very young age. One thing we need to do is start very young.

The second one is to include youth, young teenagers, in some of the things we're doing: invite them to military bases; get women out there to talk to them. I think there are opportunities there.

Let's not recruit at all-white, male hockey games, because we're going to keep getting what we always have—and that's okay, because there's a certain proportion, but it won't be diversified, for sure.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I appreciate that. I know that in Manitoba, where I'm from, they have been doing a women on wings program, and they have women in the aerospace industry, which includes people at 1 Canadian Air Division and 17 Wing, who are out there promoting the forces alongside those who are doing recruiting for Boeing, Magellan and other aerospace industries. They're starting with kids—toddlers, even. It's a field day. It's a great day. Thousands of people show up at it. I agree with you 100%.

I am familiar with your story. I haven't read your book yet, but I remember when your story first broke, and pictures of you tied to the tree, and the hardship.... That's brutal, and unfortunately I've heard similar stories, happening, of all places, at RMC. You'd think that, with the professors there on top of the civilian bodies, along with the military leadership, that would have been identified and stomped out decades ago. I've also heard from people who have gone in to do harassment training within RMC that they get catcalled when they go into the classroom.

You're talking about our youth, and they're the ones who should be more conditioned and sensitive than...stuff that happened 30 years ago. Again, does it go right back to our public school system, or is it society in general and the infiltration of the Internet, and not being able to control everything that's going on in their lives?

[Sandra Perron]

I think some of it is everywhere. If you go to any university, you will find a certain portion of that. Is it worse at MilCol? Studies have shown that it is, or has been, progressively worse than in other areas, and there's more work to do.

There is a certain reason for that. They are taught to be elite. They are told, over and over again, that they are starting in a pole position, and they're the best and the cream of the crop. When you get told that enough times, you start believing you are above any reproach, and you start derogating from rules and regulations.

I don't think it comes from schools, necessarily, or from any particular place. I think it's perhaps the way we've selected them, and then groomed them to believe they are the best.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Just a....

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm going to have to hold it there, James. You can have time afterwards if you like.

I'm going to give the floor to MP Gerretsen.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Perron and Ms. St-Pierre, for your presence here today.

I want to pick up on the discussion you started with Mr. Bezan—it's been going on throughout the conversation—about the roles of women, and making more and diverse roles available to women through the manner in which children are exposed to various roles. You were hitting on that just a second ago.

I'm curious as to where you see the line between what the responsibility of society is and what you see as the responsibility of parents. What role do parents play in that, in terms of the way they are nurturing and raising their children? What role does society have to play in trying to affect the way parents do that?

[Sandra Perron]

Wow, that's a—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'm sorry. I should have started by saying that it's very deeply culturally embedded, a cultural problem that we have not just in the military, but writ large over everything.

[Sandra Perron]

Agreed.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

My two-year-old son watches Paw Patrol. If you don't know what that is—