Evidence of meeting #126 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was diversity.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Okay.
Do you think that under current circumstances, if numbers were the same, you could train away this problem or would the chain of command just be so strong that you would have this conformity to culture from women if the numbers stayed the same, even if you tried to offer training to resolve this issue?
5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I think if you just tell women who make it to a senior officer position or a high-ranking position to help the ones behind them, the younger junior officers.... If there's just some sort of, I don't know, a policy, or someone telling them that they just can't shut off who's below them. They have to look back and—
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
That's what my colleague Ms. Dzerowicz was saying. Maybe there need to be incentives to do this.
In the limited time I have, I want to get to one more issue that's important to me.
This government and, I think, all of us around the table are taking the issue of mental health among our Canadian Forces members and veterans extremely seriously. To what extent do you think mental health injuries sustained in non-combat environments are amplified by the fact that we have a lack of diversity and a lack of gender equality in the Canadian Forces? Is there a compound effect between the two? I'm thinking that your testimony would suggest yes, but I'd like to hear a bit more from you if possible.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
On mental health and lack of diversity and the two coming together, do they mutually reinforce and exacerbate each other?
February 7th, 2019 / 5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I don't know if that has anything to do with it. I'm not quite sure if I can comment on that, unless you can say the question differently. I'm just not sure how to answer it.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Okay. Would you have a better support system within the Canadian Forces to address invisible injuries if there were greater diversity and if there were better gender equality?
5:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, because the doctor, who was a woman, was the one who wouldn't sign my papers when she knew that it would end my career, I don't think it would really help if there were more women, but as far as different cultures and different backgrounds go, very possibly. I would hope so.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Obviously, I'm asking you to speculate, because we don't have empirical evidence and we're forward looking on this, but thank you. That's helpful.
Madam Justice Deschamps, I have a question for you on culture. Culture is a term that often imparts very positive sentiments. We use it all over the place in a celebratory way as something that we champion and that we want to encourage.
When we talk about sexual harassment, and even sexual assault and sexual aggressiveness, as you describe it in the ERA, as something that is cultural, is that a useful term? Is it something that we should maybe think about steering away from? Should we instead call it “endemic sexual harassment” or something that has less appeal? Culture sort of imports the idea that this will take a generation, that it will just go away if we go in the right direction, and that it's not necessarily something we should take seriously.
5:20 p.m.
Former Justice, Supreme Court of Canada, As an Individual
Well, culture may be positive or negative, so I think we have to face it. If it's cultural, we need to change the culture. There may be many ways, but I don't think you can shy away from the reality.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Is the import of this the idea that this problem will take some time to resolve, rather than how we have an opportunity to be quick about it?
5:20 p.m.
Former Justice, Supreme Court of Canada, As an Individual
You're right. You cannot be quick about it because—
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Is it fair to say that during the time we have to wait for this, many more women and members of the LGBTQ2 community will sustain injuries?
5:20 p.m.
Former Justice, Supreme Court of Canada, As an Individual
Of course you need to have a system in place, but you have to start somewhere. Just changing the term will not resolve the problem. If you face the reality and you put in place.... But you have to start somewhere. This is it. If you start, you will increase confidence and you will get the ball rolling, but you have to start somewhere.
5:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
Madam Deschamps and Ms. Nash, thank you both for coming and sharing your perspectives and your stories. We need to hear these things so we can craft substantive recommendations to the Government of Canada, and make these systems better for everyone who comes after you. Thank you again for being here.
I'm going to suspend very quickly so we can go in camera.
[Proceedings continue in camera]