Evidence of meeting #130 for National Defence in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was know.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Sven Spengemann Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Thank you for that. Those are some very practical, helpful insights.
I have very limited time left. I wanted to circle back, Lieutenant Colonel, very briefly to your comment that the chain of command might get it but supervisors on the ground less so. What could the Canadian Forces do structurally to rightsize that issue?
LCol (Ret'd) David A. Quick
The senior officers do not see what's happening at the lower level. It's up to the CO to talk to his junior officers to find out what's happening at the lower level. The junior officer has to talk to his warrant officers, his sergeants and his men. If the leadership is not doing this all the way down, then it's broken.
When I was in command, I always talked to my men. Where the warrant officer could not hear them, they could talk to me. I don't think that's happening anymore. Everyone's become a manager, not a leader. How do we re-instill this? You have to give the junior officers authority. I had more authority as a lieutenant than 10 years later as a captain in Ottawa.
The thing is, the soldiers are afraid that if they go against their master corporal or their sergeants, their evaluation report will be poor and they won't move ahead. I'll tell you, I've gotten some of those evaluation reports where they couldn't understand. “What did I do wrong? No one told me I was doing badly.” This is how they punish them, and there's no recourse on this.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
We're going to five-minute questions now.
MP Fisher will get the first question.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Thank you, folks, for being here.
Ms. Pope, thank you for being here virtually. I certainly appreciate your testimony.
I want to close the loop here.
Mr. Lerat, you stated that there is interest among indigenous Canadians in joining the military.
Lieutenant Colonel Quick, you talked about there being no barriers on entering the Canadian military. I'm left asking: Why the low numbers? Why are the numbers so low? Is it more of a retention issue? Are we getting young, indigenous members in the Canadian military and then they're leaving? You paint a rosier picture, maybe, than I had envisioned.
I guess I'll go with Mr. Quick on that first.
LCol (Ret'd) David A. Quick
Regarding my statement that I do not know of any barriers, the last time I was in a recruiting office was in 1983. If there are barriers, someone would have to tell me that. No one has ever told me that there are barriers.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Mr. Lerat, you said the interest is clearly there. Are the numbers too small? Are they opening up, for instance, the Bold Eagle program to 25 members only? Do they need to open up the programs to larger numbers?
Third Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations
I think we have the numbers. It's a matter of ensuring that our individuals who are in Bold Eagle at that very young age are exposed to those role models who are able to resonate and connect with them. I'm not saying just first nations, but those who have the experience.
For us, it's the role models. It's someone who is your race and who you see as successful.
Coming out of Bold Eagle we've had a few officers—two of whom I know specifically—who are now back in civilian life. One is a chief and another is a consultant. But our most steady focus on our success as first nations people is a gentleman by the name of General Paul. He's out of Loretteville in Quebec, but he is first nation. I've had the pleasure of crossing paths with General Paul when he was out west. I use him as an influence on the young by saying, "You could be this.”
The more models we have.... In Bold Eagle, we try to ensure the training staff are first nation, and then we have the support staff who are RCMP or city police for that one week of cultural training. But getting them from there into the reserves, and then into the regs, the armed forces, still remains a challenge.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
Ms. Pope gave us a couple of recommendations.
Mr. Lerat, could you give us one recommendation for how we could increase recruitment?
Third Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations
We would like to see first nations or aboriginal recruitment officers at the recruitment sites.
February 26th, 2019 / 4:30 p.m.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
That's excellent.
Ms. Pope, I have 40 seconds left. I hate to belabour this, because Mr. Garrison has already touched on it, but I was fascinated by your thought about the indigenous mentorship program.
If the numbers were increased and we had more indigenous or first nations in the Canadian military, do you feel that you would still need an official program of indigenous mentorship?
Maybe you could just touch on that in 20 seconds.
Indigenous Advocate, As an Individual
Yes. I feel if the individual or the mentee could choose a mentor of their choice, there would be a long-term commitment to the Canadian Armed Forces.
Liberal
Darren Fisher Liberal Dartmouth—Cole Harbour, NS
The numbers went up, and you said you didn't see a lot of indigenous women. If the numbers in recruitment went up significantly and you were surrounded by more indigenous women, would you still recommend the mentorship program?
Liberal
Conservative
Conservative
Mark Warawa Conservative Langley—Aldergrove, BC
Thank you to the witnesses. I'm not normally a member of the committee—I'm an occasional replacement—but I found this very interesting. I thank each of you for your testimony today.
I want to focus on recruitment. A lot of my questions have already been addressed. I want to focus, though, on military service. And thank you again to each of you.
It's not for everyone. My father was a vet and my uncles were vets of the Second World War. They did not make a career of the military. There were six boys and they all made it back safely. My father was in the army and my uncles were in the navy. What I experienced, as a parliamentarian, was four or five days in the military. I chose the army first, in Wainwright, and then I went into the navy on the Winnipeg. I quickly found that I didn't like the navy and the repetitive nature of the navy, but I thought it would have been very interesting to have had a career in the army. But, again, I didn't know what I would have been getting into if I would have chosen that as a career. That was a common theme—that people didn't know what they were getting into.
Mr. Lerat, you mentioned loneliness. You recommended that there be indigenous people in recruitment, but Ms. Pope said that she experienced isolation, an extremely unhealthy environment, to the point where she left. She talked about loneliness and felt that she needed that mentor person as she went through that.
My question is this. Is it for everyone? How do we properly let people who are indigenous know better what they're committing to? You said you didn't know what you were getting into, yet you liked it. How do you screen people and let them know this is what the life in the military, in the Canadian Forces, is going to be like so that people know what they're getting into? Would it be helpful if in the recruitment they were actually being mentored at the front end? They would get into it and be supported in all of these practical ways, and people would know what they were getting into. Would that be helpful?
Third Vice-Chief, Federation of Sovereign Indigenous Nations
That's a really difficult question to answer, because different individuals will have different reactions to joining the forces. To me, it was easy. My brother was there, and what was good for him was good for me. However, now, in our current situation, we place so much more emphasis not only on priests but on our holy men and women, as well.
Our church is somewhat different. I was raised Roman Catholic in a residential school, but have since gone to what we call “the red road” in our society. It's the same. We're all linked in by the Creator, whether it's God or whatever you call Him. We all respect the different denominations.
Getting back to your question, though, about how you would explain to an individual, a youth, that this is the real life of the forces, it's difficult for me. In terms of retention I know that, as Madam Pope indicated, our sacred ceremonies and our protocols are helpful to us as first nations—and not only to us as first nations, just like a church, but it's open to everyone.
However, elders and elders' attachments to bases, to areas where our aboriginal people are employed, especially when they're going in.... When I went in, I went to Cornwallis. That's a long way from the reservation outside of Regina.
At the same time, though, there was the camaraderie that I established. I wasn't too exposed to non-first nations or to negroes, so it was all a learning experience for me as we went forward. At the same time, we were all one. We were units. We were a collective. If one was down, you'd kind of pull him up.
That camaraderie is similar to Bald Eagle. What happens in Bald Eagle is that it's a team approach, but it's a team approach that is supported by those whom those individuals trust. I'm not saying they don't trust others, but it's easier to talk to an elder, as they are part of your culture.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Stephen Fuhr
I think you're a little bit over the time, but I was letting you finish. I appreciate your remarks.
I'm going to yield the floor to MP Dzerowicz.
Julie Dzerowicz Davenport, Lib.
Thank you to everyone for their excellent presentations.
I'd like to direct my first question to Ms. Pope.
You might not know the answer to this, so don't feel fussed about it. I was just curious, as you were speaking, if you know how many indigenous women are actually in the Canadian Armed Forces, whether its the forces or the navy. Do you have any idea about the numbers.
Indigenous Advocate, As an Individual
At the present time I don't even think there is data gathered on that specific question. I know this could probably be a good opportunity to gather that data and present it in a diagram, but off the top of my head I don't know.
Davenport, Lib.
Okay. I think I'll definitely look into this to see whether we gather that data, because I think it's important for us to do so.
Why did you join? Often people, particularly when they're young, join because they have a sibling or know someone or have a group of friends who are going. Why specifically did you join?
Indigenous Advocate, As an Individual
I enlisted because both of my elders, all my great-grandparents, unfortunately passed away. Those were the first deaths in our family in over 60 years. During that time I could not comprehend it, and I withdrew from post-secondary institutions and just walked into the recruiting centre and signed up.
