National Defence Committee on Feb. 26th, 2019

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

There are approximately 33,000 American Indians currently serving in the U.S. armed forces, or about 1.7% of the total force. That's compared with 0.9% of the overall population in the United States being of American Indian in descent. Should Canada be taking any lessons from the Americans as to how to better recruit indigenous citizens into the Canadian Armed Forces?

[LCol (Ret'd) David A. Quick]

I do not know how the Americans recruit indigenous people. I believe we are moving forward in a proper way. We are going out to them and engaging the indigenous youth.

The other day I was talking to an old friend of mine from the sixties era. He told me how the Royal Canadian Regiment used to go up north in Ontario to recruit. They wanted indigenous soldiers because they made better soldiers than the young guys from Toronto.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

New Zealand in particular is held up as an example of how to properly recruit and promote indigenous armed forces members. New Zealand Maori make up almost half the army, and 19% of their armed forces, as compared with just 4.4% of the population. The Maori warrior culture is also incorporated into their army. All recruits are given a Maori initiation rite that takes them into the warrior tribe. Can Canada learn anything from New Zealand's example in the promotion and incorporation of indigenous culture into the armed forces?

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Unfortunately, I have to hold it there. Your time is up.

I yield the floor to MP Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Thanks to our witnesses for being here today, and thank you to all three of you for your service to Canada, not just as active members but also by being here today to talk about how we can make the Canadian Forces better. It's very important to bring both positives and negatives to the committee, so I thank you for that.

I also want to bring greetings from Georgina Jolibois, the MP for Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River. She very much wanted to be here today, but the House of Commons is dealing with indigenous languages in one place and we're dealing here with indigenous people in the military. She couldn't be in both places at once.

When she came to Parliament, she came to me directly, as the NDP defence critic, and began to advocate, saying she had been a mayor in northern Saskatchewan for 12 years and used to see Canadian recruitment taking place regularly there. She wanted to know what happened to that, because there are a lot of people who would like to have the opportunity to serve, but they don't get the information, don't find out about it and don't even know the possibility is there.

She was commenting on the decline in the outreach that took place in northern and remote communities. Have any of you observed the same kind of thing—that we're going in the wrong direction on that?

[LCol (Ret'd) David A. Quick]

I think I can answer that.

I believe it all comes down to one simple thing: money—the cost of sending these teams to remote areas, the time it takes. The funding is not there anymore. Throughout my career as a senior officer, my God, I've had to sharpen my pencil so many times to keep my budget under control for what I needed to do, not what I wanted to do. There's not enough money out there.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Mr. Lerat—I'll get to Ms. Pope in just a second—you talked about the difficulties with applications, logistics and medical exams. Are there any existing programs you know of where we've tackled that problem by taking resources to people who would like to apply, rather than trying to bring the people somewhere else?

[Edward Lerat]

We have taken the sergeant with the Royal Regina Rifles on staff. We've seconded him to assist in that process to get out into the remote communities, and then we've taken him out there. He's opened the door for the recruitment officers to be involved there, whether through Skype or....

But it's still those same exams—medical, fitness and so on—that they still have to travel for. I think, if we were to coordinate—and it's totally doable—Armed Forces Day in our northern communities, fly in.... Our youth are inspired by what they see. In today's age of communication, I don't see how there couldn't be a more focused drive on recruitment.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Okay.

Ms. Pope, you talked about some very difficult experiences you had, but I commend you for also giving us some ideas of how to prevent those in the future. You talk about the importance of indigenous women mentors; that was a lack you found. Can you talk a little bit more about how that might help retain, if not recruit, more first nations people into the military?

[Tasina Pope]

When I was in it, I didn't really see a lot of indigenous women. As someone who came from post-secondary education and went to the recruiting centre and into basic training so quickly, I felt that if I'd had a mentor, even at the Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu institution, maybe there would have been more connection, not feeling so homesick the majority of the time.

I feel it would be very beneficial. Currently, even in my own indigenous community, we do have something similar to that in effect.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Since there is a shortage of indigenous people in the Canadian Forces, do you think indigenous elders could fill that kind of role in the initial stages?

[Tasina Pope]

Yes, sir. There are plenty of elders who I know are wanting to be proactive in that. I feel it would be very beneficial, again, even for me as a young indigenous person.

If I might expand more on the coordination of the recruiting centre to indigenous communities, I've actually coordinated that on my own time to bring recruiting centres out to my own reserve. We also have two isolated satellite reserves, so on top of that, I myself had to actually go and coordinate with the recruiting centre to come to our communities, and I'm not even employed by or enlisted with the Canadian Armed Forces.

I know there is a lack of funding in every department, but I feel we could utilize veterans, even, who are not in the forces.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

If we have a goal of having greater diversity, we have to put the resources behind that goal. You've given us some very good examples of ways to do that.

I know I'm running out of time. I want to thank you for mentioning the Raven aboriginal youth initiative, which takes place in my riding. It's a Royal Canadian Navy initiative, but it's only 24 students every year. It's a very successful and popular program, but a very small program. It's another example of where we found something that works, but we need to do a lot more of it.

Mr. Lerat, you were talking about Bold Eagle. What's the enrolment situation at Bold Eagle? Can you remind me again? You said something in your presentation about how many people you can take and how many want to get in.

[Edward Lerat]

Our intake is 180 this year. It went up from 100 to 150 and now we're at 180; it usually gets static at about 150. Our catchment area is so huge now and there's no quota for any specific province. It's who's out there recruiting that usually determines who fills the spaces first.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

Do you find that it's happening by who knows about the program from previous attendees?

[Edward Lerat]

Well, it's previous attendees, and we have one recruiter on staff with each of our provinces, in the Prairies anyway—Saskatchewan and Manitoba. This is funded by our aboriginal Indian affairs department as an investment in the youth. This recruiter goes out to the career days and to various functions where our youth are going to be gathered. Our youth like to see it, so he takes his backpack and dresses in full camo and they're out there trying on his backpack.

That's a huge incentive. It kind of paves the way. We have an excellent relationship with the recruiting office out of Regina as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'm going to have to leave it there, and give the floor to MP Spengemann.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. Chair, thank you very much. I'd like to thank all three of you for being with us this afternoon, for your service and for your testimony this afternoon.

I want to start with a personal anecdote. When I think of the Canadian Forces and our indigenous peoples, this is something that springs to mind immediately in my experience as a parliamentarian.

In 2016, I had a chance to travel to France and Belgium with the then-Minister of Veterans Affairs. It was a very profound and powerful experience for me as a German-born member of Parliament. In the course of that trip to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the Battle of the Somme and Beaumont-Hamel, I had a chance to meet Master Warrant Officer Stanley Mercredi who was of the Mikisew Cree First Nation in Alberta. The chief warrant officer at the time was honoured to be the carrier of the eagle staff. After the ceremonies were over, I had a chance to talk to him a little bit about this ceremonial instrument and he explained the significance of the eagle staff. He said it is unique because it represents the indigenous warrior heritage. It's an indigenous tradition that had been incorporated into military ceremony. He also told me at the time that this was the first time—in 2016—that the eagle staff had ever travelled outside of the borders of Canada for a significant military ceremony.

I wanted to put that to you in the context of a broader discussion that this country is going through on reconciliation. Is an instance like that, or any incorporation of indigenous traditions directly into the protocols of our military, something you would look at through a reconciliation lens? It's only one step, and some people might say it's a small step. What else can and should the Canadian Forces do to match what we're doing on other fronts, with respect to reconciliation in Canada?

[Edward Lerat]

Coming from Treaty 6, 4, 8, 10, and 1, we cover seven different tribes, but one thing we all have in common is our eagle staff. Our eagle staff is symbolic of our religion and our protocols. To us, it's most honourable. The eagle staff is front and centre within the Bold Eagle program. In essence, it's our way of showing our colours, just like the flags are there, and so on. In terms of reconciliation, what better way is there of showing you're accepting a culture than by publicly displaying, as part of a parade or a ceremony, that eagle staff?

I'm really for diversity. Other nations may have other ways of showing their culture, but ours is the eagle staff. It is the highest of honours.

Thank you.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Lieutenant Colonel Quick and Ms. Pope, I'd like to hear from both of you briefly on this.

[LCol (Ret'd) David A. Quick]

Ms. Pope should go first.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Sure.

[Tasina Pope]

I was thinking maybe to incorporate a smudge room, and then honorariums for elders. From my perspective, elders have the equivalency of a mayor or higher status, so it's to honour the individual, because they may pass away the following day. Those are little steps that could be incorporated.

Other than that, just don't have fire alarms operating in the vicinity of a smudge while it's being conducted, because there are cultural properties in that itself. That's just another aspect of my understanding, so that's something I would like to see in almost all military facilities, and even in messes.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Lieutenant Colonel Quick.

[LCol (Ret'd) David A. Quick]

This is probably a good time to bring this up. My last posting was with the director of casualty support management, and I was also the acting CO of the JPSU on a number of occasions. One of the dilemmas as the CO of the JPSU is care of the ill and injured indigenous member.

I was not allowed to tackle this when I was acting CO—the boss wouldn't let me do it—but the problem as a commanding officer is that you are limited in what you can do to help the indigenous member in his treatment program. The medical authority does not recognize spiritual healing. Therefore, they will not support allowing a member to go to a healing lodge or any other spiritual or cultural treatment. With the changes in the powers of the commanding officer, the commanding officer used to be the one who granted sick leave. He no longer has that authority; it's a medical doctor who does that. If a person wishes to take on spiritual healing, then that person must take leave and pay their own way to treat themselves.

I know of ways you can get around that, but I don't want to discuss it, and I would never tell my regional commanders how to circumvent military regulations. It's just that now it's up to the member to pay for their own treatment.