National Defence Committee on Feb. 28th, 2019

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the defence committee. We will be discussing the supplementary estimates (B), 2018-19, and the 2019-20 interim estimates.

I would like to welcome the Honourable Harjit Sajjan, Minister of National Defence—and sir, thank you for coming; Deputy Minister Jody Thomas; and Lieutenant-General Paul Wynnyk.

Thank you and departmental officials for attending today.

Sir, I will turn the floor over to you for your opening remarks.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Minister of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Members of the standing committee, thank you for inviting me again to discuss the supplementary estimates and the 2019-20 interim estimates for the Department of National Defence and the Communications Security Establishment.

Before I begin, I want to thank everybody for the work they do.

Joining me today is Deputy Minister Thomas; the vice chief of defence staff, Lieutenant-General Wynnyk; Shelly Bruce, the chief of the CSE, as well as other very important members of our team.

Mr. Chair, when we formed government, our Prime Minister asked me to ensure that our women and men in uniform are prepared and well-equipped when called upon to serve both here at home and abroad.

To do so, we conducted probably the most open and comprehensive defence consultations ever undertaken, resulting in our defence policy, “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, a rigorously costed and a transparent vision for the next 20 years of the defence policy.

As we work to implement the policy, our number one focus is caring for our people. That means ensuring they have the support, the equipment and training they need to do the important work we ask of them.

I am pleased to report that 68% of capital projects in the defence policy are now complete or under way. That percentage reflects the implementation or completion of 225 projects totalling $2.9 billion in contracts awarded in 2018.

We are doing what we said we were going to do to support the women and men of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces.

While the previous government cut funding to our Canadian Armed Forces through its deficit reduction action plan, we are increasing our defence budget by more than 70% over the next decade. We are working to provide the best possible care to our women and men in uniform and their families as they transition to post-military life.

In December, National Defence launched the new transition group to help members as they move from active duty to post-military life. We want to ensure that when the time comes, our members and their families are ready to make a seamless and successful transition. We have also reintroduced the veteran's service card to recognize their tremendous dedication and courage. As of this month, DND has mailed out more than 6,900 cards to former Canadian Armed Forces members.

We are also making military life easier for families by advancing Seamless Canada. We are working with the provinces and territories to improve access to health care, education and licensing when our members relocate across the country. Mr. Chair and members of the committee, this is extremely important.

And for those just beginning their service with the reserves, we are funding the full-time summer employment program again this year to help them gain unique and relevant work experience while learning valuable life and leadership skills that will help them find jobs in the future. The program is hugely popular among new recruits, and a big reason we are on track to meet our defence policy's target to grow the reserves by 1,500 members.

We are also looking after our women and men in uniform through our paid summer training programs for indigenous young people living in Canada, which combine traditional teachings with an introduction to military skills and practices.

Mr. Chair, our government values the Canadian Armed Forces members who defend our country and project Canadian values around the world every single day. Our support for them has never been stronger.

When we formed government, we recognized the years of under-investment by the previous government that left our military facing extensive challenges, including the long-standing neglect of our air force. As a result of this under-investment, we discovered that our air force could not generate enough aircraft to answer our NATO and NORAD obligations at the same time.

In “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, we laid out a plan to deal with this shortfall left by the previous government, which included securing interim fighter aircraft to supplement our existing fleet of CF-18s. The first two jets arrived in Cold Lake earlier this month and will be proudly flying in Canadian colours this spring. Sixteen more will follow in the coming years.

As the Auditor General has affirmed, there is still more to be done to address the shortfall left by the previous government. Now, to address that, we are also advancing the competitive process to acquire 88 new fighters. Now, after a decade of inaction by the Conservatives, we are ensuring that we can meet our international commitments with the arrival of these fighters, while holding an open and transparent competition to replace the entire fleet. This was not done before.

The same holds true for our ships. Just last month, we signed a contract with Irving Shipbuilding, which then selected Lockheed Martin to design the new Canadian surface combatant.

Meanwhile, three new Arctic and offshore patrol ships that will help us to protect Canadian sovereignty in the north are in full production. Steel cutting for the fourth is planned for later this year. ln November, we announced a sixth ship, which we expect to be delivered in 2024.

These ships will enhance our Royal Canadian Navy's presence in the Arctic and support a range of missions, including humanitarian aid, search and rescue, and drug interdiction. The ships will create and support thousands of jobs for shipbuilders in Halifax, a region with deep ties to our navy. Many of its residents serve and sail, and many more are connected through family and friends.

To keep the progress on these Arctic and offshore patrol ships moving, we are requesting $159 million through the supplementary estimates (B).

Through “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, we are also renewing core Canadian Army capabilities. In December we received the last of 500 tactical armoured patrol vehicles.

ln addition, we are acquiring C6 general purpose machine guns to replace our existing machine gun fleet. The C6 is the firearm of choice for many of our NATO allies, and is fundamental to the army's future effectiveness as a combat-ready force. We are also delivering much-needed new C-19 rifles to our Canadian rangers to replace the Lee Enfield rifles they had been using since 1947—another example of the previous government's not getting the job done.

These investments are essential to supporting our Canadian Armed Forces members on operations, whether they are defending our sovereignty at home, or demonstrating leadership on the global stage.

ln my mandate letter, I was tasked with ensuring that Canada would recommit to serving alongside our international friends and allies. After years of neglect by the Harper Conservatives, we are re-engaging on the world stage.

With initiatives like the Vancouver principles on peacekeeping and child soldiers, the Elsie initiative and our support for the United Nations peacekeeping mission in Mali, we are once again demonstrating the leadership that Canada is known for.

Earlier this month, this committee saw up close how Canada is contributing to international peace and security in Senegal and Mali. Through Operation Presence, our Air Task Force Mali is delivering vital airlift capabilities in support of MINUSMA.

Since July, our Chinook and Griffon helicopters have airlifted more than 344,000 pounds of cargo, flown 139 sorties, and conducted seven medical evacuations over a span of more than 2,300 hours of flying time. I visited Mali with the Prime Minister in December to personally thank the Canadian Armed Forces members. At that time, the group included 13% women, who have been shown to improve a mission's operational effectiveness. These members are doing tremendous work in challenging conditions. ln fact, the Netherlands Armed Forces awarded a decoration of merit to Canada's recently returned mission commander, Colonel McKenna, for his exceptional contribution in support of Dutch reconnaissance units on ground patrol.

On behalf of the defence team and all Canadians, I commend the entire air task force for this distinct honour. The air task force is now moving into its second rotation, with Operation Presence to be completed in July 2019. To prepare for the transition, we are requesting $75.7 million to cover costs up until the end of Operation Presence and the lead-up to the handover to Romania, which will take over once Canada's deployment is complete.

Our engagement on the world stage is also why we are requesting additional funds to support Canadian Armed Forces missions in Europe and in the waters of the Middle East.

Specifically, we are requesting $67.2 million for Operation Reassurance, where almost 700 women and men in uniform are deployed to lead NATO's enhanced forward presence battle group in Latvia, contributing to NATO's maritime task force in the Mediterranean and North Atlantic. Also, we request $23.1 million for Operation Unifier, where nearly 200 Canadian Armed Forces members are training over 10,000 Ukrainian security forces troops on a wide range of capabilities. Canada's support for Ukraine is unwavering, and we will continue to support Ukrainians in their time of need.

There is $222.7 million dollars for Operation Impact, where more than 700 troops are contributing in the combined efforts of our international partners in the global coalition to defeat Daesh, and where Canadian Major-General Dany Fortin has taken command of the NATO training mission. In total, we are requesting $313.9 million in support of international operations.

Further, we are seeking to transfer $18.4 million internally to contribute more to the NATO security investment program. This program supports global peace and security by funding NATO's communication systems, military facilities and navigational aids. As a founding nation of NATO and one of its biggest financial contributors, our commitment to the alliance is strong. Unlike the previous Conservative government, which cut defence spending, withdrew from NATO's airborne warning and control system, known as AWACs, and stepped down on multilateralism, Mr. Chair, we are stepping up.

Canada is also contributing to NATO's efforts to strengthen gender equality, because we know that empowering women is not just the right thing to do, it's the smart thing to do. In fact, our own Clare Hutchinson is currently acting as NATO's special representative for women, peace and security. Clare was a gender adviser for the United Nations for more than 10 years, and she is now responsible for all aspects of NATO's contribution to the women, peace and security agenda.

Here at home, our government is taking steps toward reconciliation with indigenous peoples. Last year, we signed an agreement in principle with Treaty 1 first nations on the sale and transfer of the former Kapyong Barracks in Winnipeg. Today, we are requesting to transfer nearly $57,000 to help remove unexploded ordinance from the Tsuut'ina Nation's land, part of the former Canadian Forces base in Calgary.

Mr. Chair, Canadians expect their government to deliver on its commitments, and that is what we are doing and why we are requesting $569.4 million in additional funding under supplementary estimates (B).

Separately, we are requesting $2.7 million for the CSE to increase its secure communications capability, along with the transfer of $13 million, of which $11.5 million will support the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security. I was happy to announce the launch of the centre last fall. Its important work in educating and advising Canadians on how best to deal with cybersecurity threats is increasingly important as we spend more and more time online. CSE is also working with our national security agencies to protect Canadians and safeguard our democratic institutions against cyber-threats in the lead-up to the 2019 general election.

On a closing note, I will address the interim estimates. In the first quarter of the fiscal year 2019-20, DND requires $4.9 billion dollars, representing one-quarter of the anticipated main estimates. The bulk of this includes capital expenditures and operating costs to cover salaries, utilities and maintenance.

Our women and men in uniform are the country's greatest strength. These funds will make sure that they have everything they need to ensure we are strong at home, secure in North America, and engaged in the world.

Thank you very much. I'd be happy to take your question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Thank you, Minister.

I also want to thank the department for their support on our trip to Mali. We couldn't have done it without that support. We were very impressed with what we saw, and we learned that our troops were setting the bar very high in the task they were asked to do on the mission they are undertaking. Thank you for that.

We're going to go to seven-minute questions.

As a reminder, I know that some of these questions will span across a couple of people, so check in with me visually every once in a while for a cue that I need you to wind down within 30 seconds. That way I can keep the conversation going and make sure that all members get their time.

I'll give the first seven-minute question to MP Spengemann.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, it's great to have you back along with your senior leadership team.

As the chair said, members of this committee had a chance to travel to Mali a few weeks ago. I'd like to echo the chair's comments on the quality of the support we received. We had a chance to speak with the women and men who were deployed in in Task Force Mali in Operation Presence. We had a first-hand impression of the excellence and the strength of the team currently being deployed. There was an overwhelming message that Canada is back supporting peace operations, and more importantly, that our contributions matter deeply.

I'd like to thank you for your leadership, and the leadership of your team in taking us back.

Minister, as somebody who has served in a UN mission in a conflict zone, I know that the mere presence of an advanced air medevac and casevac capability gives tremendous comfort and confidence to the women and men serving under the blue flag. Knowing that someone has your back when you're in harm's way really matters.

Could I take you through your own personal impressions when you were on the ground in December and your conversations with the women and men who serve? What did you learn, and what conclusions did you reach about the kind of activity you were involved in when contributing to MINUSMA?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

As you learn about the challenges of a nation, and as we were looking at creating our plans at how we could help the United Nations with its reforms, you create the policy and you figure out the plan, and then you rely on your Canadian Armed Forces members to turn it into action.

When I visited for the first time, I think, just like you, having been part of the briefings for the plan and what they were going to do, it exceeded my expectations. The ingenuity they brought to the table took into consideration their experience in Afghanistan, and they completely enhanced it. They took the experience of the Germans and the Dutch as well. The Chinook helicopters have given them the ability to go further. The only security they bring with them, but...because on the ground when there's a challenge you can't just rely on security to make sure we are looked after.

The additional training they took upon themselves to make sure that the security folks had additional medical training has helped enhance their ability. Probably the biggest thing I took away was the confidence it brings. It has allowed ground forces to patrol further. They are able to reach areas they couldn't reach before. They enhance the current mission on the ground just by their presence.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Minister, thank you for that.

A number of initiatives introduced under “Strong, Secure, Engaged” have already been implemented by the Canadian Armed Forces, and we also have enhanced tax relief for members of the Canadian Armed Forces deployed on international operations. Could you confirm for the committee, briefly, whether those soldiers currently deployed in Mali would benefit from this tax-exempt status?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

That has resonated extremely well. What better way to say thank you, not just to the members who are deployed but also to the families they're leaving behind than to demonstrate to them that their sacrifice, their family's sacrifice...? Giving that extra money makes a huge difference.

I can confirm to you that all members of internationally approved operations get tax free, including in Mali.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

The committee learned—I think I speak for all of us—that the Mali conflict is incredibly complex. There are layers of activity ranging anywhere from skirmishes between cattle ranchers and those who grow agricultural crops, to smuggling arms, drugs and people along various routes. Layered on top of that is international terrorism. The context is quite fluid. There is some concern that it's getting worse and that it's also moving south.

Given the diversity of such conflicts, can you talk a bit about the need for diversity in the Canadian Armed Forces, specifically for women and men who are deployed in peace operations—diversity not just with respect to culture, but also with respect to life experience and being able to interact effectively with the local populations.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I've always said that diversity is one of the greatest strengths we have as a nation. The Canadian Armed Forces recognized this some time ago, from our UN peacekeeping operations in the past, to Afghanistan, and what they're doing in Iraq, and especially in Mali.

Having that diversity to making sure that how we grow up in Canada, understanding other cultures, respecting one another and just a genuine desire to learn from one another, results in how you interact with other people. That interaction has a tremendous impact. Whether it's from the diversity.... Let's not forget our bilingualism—having French also gives us an added advantage as well, and the diversity of having more women. With the current rotation, we're at 15%, which is the UN goal, and we're far higher than their average.

Diversity is extremely important. I think we've done a really good job, but I think we can take opportunities to learn from the experience how we can further enhance it. I think we can draw more from within the Canadian Armed Forces, but as we start recruiting.... When we talk about trying to represent the population, this is not just about making sure that everybody has an opportunity to join the Canadian Armed Forces, but an operational effectiveness for the Canadian Armed Forces.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I have about a minute left, Minister.

You spoke to this committee previously about the importance of a whole-of-government approach to international peace operations. If you see a conflict as complex and multi-faceted as Mali, I'm wondering if you could elaborate that context with a bit more specificity what you mean by whole of government, and how important it is for us to think in that way as we plan future engagements.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

This is one thing that Canada has been championing for some time, something that we've been trying to demonstrate by leading by example on this with every mission that we do.

Conflicts don't just pop up. What you see in a conflict is a symptom of something that has happened. The military mission there helps to stabilize the situation and buys time for the diplomats and the development workers to do their work. That's what we're trying to do.

As we provided our support, it wasn't just about the military. It's about putting the right investments in development, and it's about putting the right investments for capacity-building as well.

We can't do it alone. Other nations also have to do it, but because we're leading by example and the goal is to get more nations involved.... This is what the UN has been asking for. We call it “whole of government” and the UN's been calling it the “comprehensive approach”.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

MP Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Minister, thanks for being here.

My first question is a very quick one. You've taken on the role now of acting minister of Veterans Affairs. You're the fourth minister of Veterans Affairs in the three-year term. Is this going to evolve into something where Veterans Affairs and National Defence get merged together, or is this just a short-term stay?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

First of all, to talk about it in terms of.... I think the most important thing is our government's commitment to making sure that we look after our veterans, and regardless of who is in that position we are making sure that we continue to move in that direction. The investments that we've made, the programs that have been into place, but also—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Yes, but on the management side, how are you going to...? There are two big departments.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Ultimately, when it comes to the machinery of government, that decision is left up to the Prime Minister, but one thing is for sure: Our commitment to our veterans is extremely important to our government, regardless of who is in this position.

I've been fortunate enough to have an indirect connection with Veterans Affairs, because whoever the minister of Veterans Affairs is, is also the associate—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We'll get back to that.

The Parliamentary Budget Officer came out with a report on the interim fighter jets, the used Australian jets that are over 40 years old. The cost was 22% higher, $200 million more. Why did you mislead Canadians on the cost of buying these Australian used jets?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last part.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Why did you mislead Canadians when you announced that we were buying these used Australian fighter jets?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

One, I can assure you that we did not. In getting the interim fighters, as I stated in my remarks, it's extremely important that we meet the obligations we have made as a nation to NATO and NORAD, and not just wait until we replace all of them. We need to start doing it now as the full competition for the fighter is being done.

They should've been replaced 10 years ago. We've been very clear with the costing, making sure that we provide—

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

But you weren't very clear with the costing. You were 20% off.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

No. We have been providing the necessary information.

The contingency, I believe, was not used. We've been happy not only to work with the Parliamentary Budget Officer, but more importantly, when it comes to our defence policy and all procurements, we've been very transparent in our work, which includes probably the largest procurement in Canadian history, the Canadian surface combatants. The estimates and the costing that we did for that was pretty close to being in line with what the PBO had done, and we will continue to make sure that we do thorough costing while at the same time making sure that we provide the appropriate information.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I"ll move on to supplementary estimates (B), vote 5, capital expenditures. In 2018-19, you're asking for $4.2 billion. “Strong, Secure, Engaged” asked for $6.6 billion. That's a difference of $2.4 billion being underfunded. When you take in your last year being underfunded as well, you're now $5 billion under your own defence policy. That's just a statement that you're not throwing the money out of the door the way you promised.

Now, in capital expenditures, if you go online, you can see that there are a number of SNC-Lavalin contracts. If SNC-Lavalin fails, how can we secure the information they have? A lot of that is classified. Is that going to be done by making sure that all of those documents are collected, whether they're blueprints, engineering drawings or studies that they've done for the Department of National Defence, or is that why you're hoping they get a deferred prosecution agreement?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm glad you asked the first portion of your question. It's very interesting and clever how you tried to bring SNC-Lavalin into that piece of it, but in terms of the money that we had requested, as I stated last year, we are needing to spend a lot more money, while, at the same time, we need to get enough people to be able to handle the volume of projects. We need to get better at that.

One thing I can assure you, in terms of the actual.... As we have progressed, the spending has also increased, but our efficiencies have also increased, and I'm just going to ask our—