National Defence Committee on Sept. 29th, 2016

[RAdm Jennifer Bennett]

In addition to my roles with the strategic response team, I'm the champion for women in defence. We are working extensively on the premise of “seeing is believing”. Having junior officers with operational experience who represent the next generation has been very important and critical for us. The way they speak and the way they represent themselves is quite different than General Whitecross and I, who experienced that transition period.

People do need to see themselves in these careers and they need to understand, especially for that operation. We have some wonderful examples that we're utilizing as our spokespeople to get out visibly and show that it can be done.

[Leona Alleslev, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much for the privilege of being able to ask you these questions.

That's all I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go back to the main causes of the increase in the number of cases of harassment or assault.

The results of the investigation of the Canadian Forces will be published in November. We will then have a better idea of who has the most problems, whether the army, the navy or the air force.

Ms. Whitecross, were changes in the conditions of service already planned? We know that during deployments in Afghanistan at the time, or in the context of future deployments with the UN, there are certain obligations insofar as sexual relations are concerned. For instance, two military members who are a couple do not have the right to have sexual relations on these missions; that is forbidden.

There are missions which require observation posts with an infantry section, for instance. There may be eight men and one woman who are together 24 hours a day in remote posts. We want everyone to be equal, but nature being what it is, it can become difficult.

Do you think that the army, the navy and the air force, in fact, the forces in general, will rethink how they conduct operations, and the royal orders governing relations between men and women?

[LGen Christine Whitecross]

First, in terms of the survey, it will be out at the end of November. It will give us two things. It will give us a baseline, an idea of what the general knowledge is and what has happened, both prior to Operation Honour and since.

In terms of the deployment policies when it comes to personal relationships, we will look at all of our military HR policies for everything in the months and years to come to put a gender-based analysis on them, and to ensure they meet the requirements of the UN Security Council Resolution 1325 on women, peace, and security.

I do not espouse that by human nature, men and women will get together. As military members, the expectation is that they will follow orders. If it means there will be no relationship while on deployment, then that's exactly what they will do. We need to ensure that is maintained, because that's the policy and that's the expectation.

Speaking about married couples, I happen to know of married couples who have been deployed at the same time. There is always a risk in deploying married couples, as you're probably aware, one of them being that if they have children, you should make sure one of them is in Canada. They do have the allowance to do their travel at the same time if the operational climate can handle it. Again, the rules are clear.

All of the policies will be looked at again in the months and years to come.

Thank you, sir.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You have received a certain number of complaints. Are you able to assess whether these are mostly cases of assault of a subordinate by a superior? Do you have any information or figures on that? Are the people involved in these cases of the same rank? Are there a lot of cases of assault of a subordinate by a superior, for instance a sergeant who assaults a corporal?

[LGen Christine Whitecross]

I understand the question a bit better now.

There is a policy out there. It's called “adverse personal relationships”. We made it very clear in the beginning of our action plan that we need to not just define it, but ensure it is very clear that whoever is the senior in the relationship, whether it's a sergeant and a corporal, or a colonel and a private—it doesn't matter—the senior member of that relationship must identify the relationship to his or her seniors the minute it starts, or before. If they do not, it will be deemed to be an adverse personal relationship, and that senior member will be held to account.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

I'll just remind you that you can split time.

Mr. Spengemann, did you have another question?

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

One of the comments that I think the committee was struck with, and probably Canadians at large, was the conclusion by you that this is going to take a long time. Many people have echoed you on that point, with some people even saying this is a generational problem. I'm just searching my mind for potential accelerators to make this happen faster. In society at large, we have all kinds of things going on. We have the HeForShe campaign, we had Emma Watson up on the Hill just yesterday.

I wanted to circle back to two comments by my colleagues, the first comment by Ms. Alleslev, which was basically that men need to step up and do their part, and the comment by my colleague Mr. Bezan, that middle management in the Armed Forces could play a stronger role.

If I could invite each of you to speculate on one or two force multipliers, or accelerators, that would bring us downside of the horizon of this taking a generation to fix. If you had carte blanche, and you had two issues that you could change tomorrow, within the tool kit that you have, or maybe even outside of it, what would they be?

[LGen Christine Whitecross]

The Canadian Armed Forces, or any military, has this thing called the chain of command. It is a very powerful tool in ensuring that not only do we meet mission success, but that orders are followed. I would submit that a fundamental understanding by every member of the chain of command—which is what we are attempting to achieve, and I believe we've made some progress there—of what it means to treat everybody with dignity and respect will go a long way in order to effect change as fast as possible.

I would also submit that the middle managers, the people who are front and centre with the men and women in uniform on a day-in, day-out basis, are the ones who can effect change as fast as possible. The faster that we can have them acknowledge and push this issue forward, the faster the organization can actually push forward.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Is there an incentive system, maybe grafted onto Operation Honour or in parallel with it, that would reinforce men who step up and defend women who are being subject to harassment and abuse?

[LGen Christine Whitecross]

We are just starting that, and I'll just give you a quick anecdote. Three junior officers are standing around. A woman comes by and one of the officers is about to make an off-colour joke, so another of the officers says that's intolerable behaviour and leaves with the woman. I find out about it, acknowledge to the person's chain of command, thank him for doing the right thing, and send him a personal note.

I know Admiral Bennett is working on—

[RAdm Jennifer Bennett]

Operation Honour honourable mentions.

[LGen Christine Whitecross]

—Operation Honour honourable mentions. That's difficult for an engineer to say. It's been established to identify those who are doing the right thing, of whom there are many, and to acknowledge the great work they're doing.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

That's helpful.

[LGen Christine Whitecross]

It is helpful. Thank you.

[RAdm Jennifer Bennett]

I would preface my remarks by saying that our challenge remains that we don't have a stagnant population in which to deal with this. We have new recruits continually joining and bringing their sets of values and their experience from society. Therefore, we are really dealing with a huge generational shift and a consistent turnover from people who have lived through transition, to people who are just joining now. That is one of our challenges in not being able to to do this quickly, because we need to effect change across so many generations.

One thing that is helpful, and that we could do more of, is promoting a greater general awareness by Canadians about the severity and the impact of this. Sometimes I think we have some challenges in being able to understand the impact, not just on the victim, but on the organization. We're doing that through discussions about the impact on our operational efficiency, our teamwork, and our raison d'être.

I think that as society comes to terms with this, and we stop focusing on very high-profile court cases and the results, but instead, we look more holistically at the issues, and what this means to our society; to perpetrators, to victims, to us as institutions and individuals. I think that would be very important and helpful for us because, again, members of the Canadian Armed Forces are Canadian citizens and represent Canadian values, so what we do outside the military has a great impact for us.

Another consideration is that we do need some time. There is a great deal of focus on this, a great deal of pressure because we are held to such a high account. For us, small victories mean a great deal. Sometimes we forget to celebrate and, as General Whitecross mentioned, we spend an awful lot of time looking at correcting the bad behaviour, instead of rewarding the good behaviour, and what right looks like. We need to remind people about that.

[Sven Spengemann, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you both.

[The Chair, Liberal, Stephen Fuhr]

Mr. Bezan.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Admiral Bennett, in your experience working with the reserves, has there been any analysis done to see whether sexual misconduct is at a different level in the reserve force versus the regular force?

[RAdm Jennifer Bennett]

The Statistics Canada survey will indicate that, and we've asked for statistics to be broken down. The survey participants were regular force and primary reserve members, so we will have an indication that will help us to understand as well the differences between reserves serving part-time at the unit and the community level versus those on full-time service who are more closely aligned with the regular force. That's our most recent data.

We have done harassment surveys, and we've done some specific work with the reserve to research retention, why people leave the climate within the reserve force. Certainly the Statistics Canada survey will be the first time that we've captured data specific to harmful and inappropriate sexual behaviour.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

The only reason I ask is because if you think about our reservists, they have their regular employment outside of the reserves and they could be in career fields where they don't have opportunities to interact with the opposite sex or people of the LGBTQ community. I just wonder if there might be some bias amongst them or inappropriate behaviour because of other experiences they have where they don't have that type of interaction.

[RAdm Jennifer Bennett]

The demographics of the reserve force are generally more diverse, and because of exposure to the civilian community, sometimes they have a very different perspective and a level of tolerance as well.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Well, it works both ways.

[RAdm Jennifer Bennett]

At the same time, we do have a challenge with the reserve force in terms of reporting and jurisdiction, because we do live in both a civilian world and the military world, and of course, offences that would occur in the civilian community versus those that are on DND property. We are looking very closely at that.

Also, in the demographics of the reserve force, there are a lot of younger people, a lot of students, and people who join for a very short time. We're looking at catering our training and our programs of awareness a bit differently for that community.